Darth Vader and Galen Marek vs. Vitiate

Fair enough.

Now as for the TP argument.

"Well tbf Galen does seem to have some resistance to mental attacks as shown when he prepares defenses again a potential mental assault by Rahm Kota and when he experienced the illusions on Kashyyyk. Vader himself has experience dealing with this sort of thing as well via Jax Pavan and the Muur Talisman.

I'd say that both Vader and Galen are more powerful then even the greatest opponents Vitiate has TP'ed and that the Sidious that TP'ed Vader ( not taking into account that if Vader tried to resist Sidious would likely have seen it as a sign of rebellion ) is greater then Vitiate."

Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Sinious

Cool but for a moment lets frame what your saying with some contexts i.e. Vitiate being able to TP Galen Marek and Vader. Who it goes without saying > everyone in the TOR Jedi Order. So that particular point is rather moot.

And I don't recall saying that prior experience had nothing to do with it, evidently it helps, as you would expect. What I said is that there is no proof it is necessary, someone sufficiently strong-willed should be able to resist Vitiate without prior experience/without developing a special technique.

And your ultimately assuming that the Outlander benefited from his prior experience with Vitiate as Revan did, when there is no solid proof of that, nor any implication of it. Regardless any such advantage would surely have been mitigated by Valkorion's own significant growth in power. 👆

Yes, you didn't say that. I was going to rephrase it, sorry for the poor wording, had to type that rather urgently. My point there is that the examples given so far don't apply to Vader or Galen as they had certain advantages that the duo here won't.

No, the novel stresses the importance of it quite explicitly, and what Revan said is actually proven to work, where we do not know whether Valkorion can mindrape him or not as Hot might be clueless and Valky might be just manipulating him. So, what Revan said is more valuable.

Well, according to the novel, that advantage allowed Revan to resist Vitiate + DM's TP for 3 centuries, and as Neph pointed out, HoT also had Scourge helping him, which is areally good point by the way, especially since Scourge's life goal is to stay close to the Emperor, learn his weaknesses and strengths, and help the championin his vision defeat Vitiate, which actually occurred in the game. 👆

Whatever happened to Scourge btw? Did he die?

He's probably gonna show up in KotFE and tag-team Valkorion with a folding chair.

I could also see him trying to kill the Outlander cuz Valkorions bound to them tho.

Originally posted by Syndicate
Fair enough.

Now as for the TP argument.

"Well tbf Galen does seem to have some resistance to mental attacks as shown when he prepares defenses again a potential mental assault by Rahm Kota and when he experienced the illusions on Kashyyyk. Vader himself has experience dealing with this sort of thing as well via Jax Pavan and the Muur Talisman.

I'd say that both Vader and Galen are more powerful then even the greatest opponents Vitiate has TP'ed and that the Sidious that TP'ed Vader ( not taking into account that if Vader tried to resist Sidious would likely have seen it as a sign of rebellion ) is greater then Vitiate."

Meh, I'm not sure if mental defenses are so actively geared up. I think you can focus your energy on TP attacks or defenses to strengthen your mind in a TP fight, but overall, the fact that Sidious can so easily penetrate his mind and make him bend the knee doesn't speak well for him. Also, didn't Vader wonder how Sidious always knew what Vader was thinking in the context of mind-reading (and not guessing via intelligence)? It sounds like Vader can't shield his mind from Sheev even if he wanted to.

Of course. I'm simply saying that Galen and Vader are capable of defending against mental assaults such as the ones Vitiate would carry out. I believe their own power in the Force would be what would allow the pair to resist him though of course while I would I agree their defenses would be tested heavily by such an assault I ultimately believe they could whether it.

I think Force power is probably the biggest factor in what allows you to resist TP followed closely by willpower though of course one usually correlates with the other. I think Sidious got a vague sense of Vader's thoughts and emotions when Vader was shielding his mind and with his own intelligence managed to pretty accurately guess his apprentice's thoughts.

Gross.

Originally posted by Sinious
Remember that he was insanely weakened though. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't mention it.

Yes, you didn't say that. I was going to rephrase it, sorry for the poor wording, had to type that rather urgently. My point there is that the examples given so far don't apply to Vader or Galen as they had certain advantages that the duo here won't.

No, the novel stresses the importance of it quite explicitly, and what Revan said is actually proven to work, where we do not know whether Valkorion can mindrape him or not as Hot might be clueless and Valky might be just manipulating him. So, what Revan said is more valuable.

And it's proven in practice when Valky needs your permission to take control of his body. Forcibly taking control only if you let him in first.

Well, according to the novel, that advantage allowed Revan to resist Vitiate + DM's TP for 3 centuries, and as Neph pointed out, HoT also had Scourge helping him, which is areally good point by the way, especially since Scourge's life goal is to stay close to the Emperor, learn his weaknesses and strengths, and help the championin his vision defeat Vitiate, which actually occurred in the game. 👆

And yeah it's a decent point I suppose, but regardless the fact remains Valkorion has grown significantly since then. In fact my your own omission, "insanely." 😉

Originally posted by Sinious
This is another approach, one that doesn't ridiculously lowball Vitiate, but actually makes a case for the other side.

It makes perfect sense that the Jedi Order's greatest weapon, who slew him in a weakened state, would be beyond Vitiate's control.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"Insanely"... lol how did you reach that conclusion. 😬

Well I'd argue that the "duo" have advantages that for example the HoTlander does not, like being significantly more powerful. But quite a fat and healthy margin depending on how you rank Arcann.

Where? Where is it explicitly stated that without these techniques, you can't resist Vitiate's TP? Not seeing it...
And it's proven in practice when Valky needs your permission to take control of his body. Forcibly taking control only if you let him in first.

BTW, You do realize that we have patch notes etc that expose that even Vitiate losing to HoT in Act III Finale might be a plan of Vitiate, right? Like, Freshest has been clarifying that shit for some time now. Like, the HoTlander might be Valkorion himself. Just curious if you know how OP they're making Valky and how fast the original swtor story gets worse with each revelation from KOTFE? 😄

Er again, where is that said? Lol. Maybe that had something to do with Revan's own incredible strength, and the fact he had Meetra to aid him. Or something.

And yeah it's a decent point I suppose, but regardless the fact remains Valkorion has grown significantly since then. In fact my your own omission, "insanely." 😉

How it "ridicolous lowballing" when most Force users can only dominate muggles? 😬

It makes perfect sense that the Jedi Order's greatest weapon, who slew him in a weakened state, would be beyond Vitiate's control.

Originally posted by Sinious
Like, the HoTlander might be Valkorion himself.

Wut?

#mindscrew

Don't even pretend like the dumbasses writing this shit aren't capable of pulling it off.

That would be really weird if you're playing a female, ngl.

And if Vaylin or Senya becomes a romance option later.

Yeah, I resisted it for a long time, still hoping that we misinterpreted something, but there is a legit chance that something as crazy is gonna be revealed at one point.

Originally posted by Nephthys
That would be really weird if you're playing a female, ngl.

And if Vaylin or Senya becomes a romance option later.

Maybe Valky is a Targaryen 👆

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL idk, maybe cause he stomped HoT + a large team of Jedi not so long ago? or maybe cause we know that Revan is above HoT, and Vitiate's lightning can one-shot him?

We've already established that Revan himself has to rely on his prior experience by following your own logic though, and like it or not, neither Vader nor Marek are on another level than Revan (unless you wanna go full Syndicate). Given Revan's superior knowledge and mental strength, pretty sure it's crucial that Revan relied on that.

I didn't say you can't defend against it no matter who you are. But again, by your own logic, the novel let's the readers know that a Revan level opponent can't just rely on his own power and face Vitiate's mental attacks with that. After all, the convo focuses on Revan's prior experience. I've already shared the quote where Revan says it.

BTW, You do realize that we have patch notes etc that expose that even Vitiate losing to HoT in Act III Finale might be a plan of Vitiate, right? Like, Freshest has been clarifying that shit for some time now. Like, the HoTlander might be Valkorion himself. Just curious if you know how OP they're making Valky and how fast the original swtor story gets worse with each revelation from KOTFE? 😄

then why does Revan "highlight" experience in the novel, instead of strength?

So your point, just like mine (which is why I mentioned Valky's growth in power in the first place) is that Valkorion should clearly be able to TP dominate him as of KOTFE.... unless there are factors even more important than just power? 🙂

He is more gifted in TP than anything else tbh. You don't see him ashing sith lords with lightning at the age of 10. His first choice of ability in battle has been TP for the majority of the time too, and he is a Sidious level force user. Sidious can f*** with Vader's mind from the other side of the galaxy. Do the math. 😬

Actually, what makes sense is that Vitiate's backstory is so OP (especially with TP) that his TP is such a huge problem for anyone from his era, since Revan who is significantly more powerful than anyone in his era is significantly inferior to Vitiate and had problems with his TP. And all you're doing is placing HoT higher and higher, nothing else.

LOL really? You're gonna use the "you're not actually a Sheev fan" card too? I understand why Temp does it, but I expected something else from the guy who claims to debate not for the sake of winning. 👆

Your original point was that Valkorion can't dominate Hotlander's mind because he is too strong for him to dominate based on a short dialogue that "highlights" that. All I'm doing is providing another dialogue that highlights the opposite, and while Valkorion might be fooling the Outlander, there is nothing like that going on in Revan's dialogue.

As for the ridiculous KOTFE revelations, my point is that you base your arguments on what is going on between HoT(lander) and Vitikorion, but we don't even know what is actually going on. Valkorion might have been playing with him from the beginning, which would change the meaning behind a lot of cutscenes from JK story.

Originally posted by Sinious
LOL really? You're gonna use the "you're not actually a Sheev fan" card too? I understand why Temp does it, but I expected something else from the guy who claims to debate not for the sake of winning. 👆

Your original point was that Valkorion can't dominate Hotlander's mind because he is too strong for him to dominate based on a short dialogue that "highlights" that. All I'm doing is providing another dialogue that highlights the opposite, and while Valkorion might be fooling the Outlander, there is nothing like that going on in Revan's dialogue.

As for the ridiculous KOTFE revelations, my point is that you base your arguments on what is going on between HoT(lander) and Vitikorion, but we don't even know what is actually going on. Valkorion might have been playing with him from the beginning, which would change the meaning behind a lot of cutscenes from JK story.

This thread should have ended a long time ago, when Vitiate won the fight.

To bad as a fictional character, he can't do that. 🙂

👆