Dreadnought vs Star Destroyer

Originally posted by Nai
Ahahaha.
Yeah. Tiny ships with no weapons that are dependant on intership sensors and communications working perfectly will certainly do much against the OT Empire that broadcasts system-wide jamming signals as standard procedure in fights.
😂

Sorry. I'm not the one who ows the other an answer, and got his ass handed to him, because he can't debate his way out of a matchbox without commiting more logical fallacies than used in a regular Chewbacca Defense, Dipshit112: Remember?

Pathetic.

So accept the battlezone. If I am all about logical fallacies then you'll surely win this debate. If you continue to run from my challenges you'll be that guy who just chirps and doesn't walk the walk.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I like to talk trash you don't. Everyone is different. Some people love some people hate it.

We don't see all of the rebel fleet firing to weaken the Executor. We do see a few rebel ships destroying the deflector shields and we see one crashing in which brings the entire ship down. Do you really believe the two rebel ships and the firepower they used to destroy the deflector shields is greater than the firepower we see the Vengeance use on screen.

Based off what film evidence ?

We hear the order, and the battle had been going on for nearly 30 minutes. It would be completely illogical to assume that at least some of the rebel firepower was not directed at the largest enemy ship.

Originally posted by Wookiepedia
The remaining Rebel cruisers and starfighters, led by B-wing starfighter pilot Ten Numb from Blue Squadron, began pummeling the Executor mercilessly, which rapidly engulfed the Super Star Destroyer's entire stern in flame, and the command ship began listing badly to starboard. Eventually, concentrated fire against the front of the Executor broke through its powerful forward shields, exposing the Super Star Destroyer's command tower to attack. Immediately, Rebel RZ-1 A-wing interceptors from Green Squadron moved in to strafe the bridge on Ackbar's orders, and two A-wings destroyed the Executor's port-side deflector shield generator dome with a proton torpedo salvo, knocking out the bridge's shields.

Watching the Executor's mounting damage inflicted by the pressing starfighter attack from aboard the bridge, Piett ordered his Super Star Destroyer to intensify its forward firepower upon learning that the bridge's shields were down to prevent anything from penetrating the window of opportunity, but it was too late. Already, the A-wing of Green Leader Arvel Crynyd had been irreparably damaged by the Executor's turbolaser fire while making its attack run on the command tower and was sent careening wildly. Crynyd purposely steered his wayward A-wing fighter on a suicidal run directly toward the Executor's bridge. Seeing the approaching fighter barreling toward him, Piett screamed once more for his bridge crew to intensify the forward batteries, but to no avail. With the Executor's navigation suite in ruins and its defensive guns losing coordination, Crynyd's A-wing smashed into the bridge's viewports.

Originally posted by Wookiepedia
The Rebels knew that destroying the Executor at Endor happened more by sheer luck than any amount of skill.

This line cements that the crashing of

As for the assertion of the two A-Wings getting those missile runs on the Executor's deflector array, that is actually more proof of what I said. Particle shields had to be down for them to get that close and make that run. That means a sustained firefight against firepower far in excess of what the Vengeance showed to be capable of was in fact exchanged.

Now, to your question, the firepower of the Vengeance was not as impressive as you seemingly assert. After all, it didn't take out an unshielded Enterrprise despite several volleys to it's hull.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
We hear the order, and the battle had been going on for nearly 30 minutes. It would be completely illogical to assume that at least some of the rebel firepower was not directed at the largest enemy ship.

This line cements that the crashing of

As for the assertion of the two A-Wings getting those missile runs on the Executor's deflector array, that is actually more proof of what I said. Particle shields had to be down for them to get that close and make that run. That means a sustained firefight against firepower far in excess of what the Vengeance showed to be capable of was in fact exchanged.

Now, to your question, the firepower of the Vengeance was not as impressive as you seemingly assert. After all, it didn't take out an unshielded Enterrprise despite several volleys to it's hull.

The enterprise was decimated and the shields were greatly reduced in just a few attacks. This is obviously more impressive than how easily the super star destroyer went down after one key ship hit a critical point in their ship.

Vengeance firepower>>>rebel ships that destroyed the deflector shields and the ship that crashed into it.

Enterprise was never completely shield less despite your assertions to the contrary.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Speculative. It's not what you think it's what you can prove. We see what destroys the deflector shields. Visual evidence>>>someone's perspective on what may or may not have happened.

How is that speculative?

Particle shields exist, because of the Hoth Asteroid chase sequence proving it so. Otherwise the Falcon would have been pulverised like the TIE fighters.

Thus, for fighters that small to approach a Star Dreadnaught grade Executor that close requires the removal of particle shields, otherwise the A-Wings would have gone up like those fighters splashing against a Cityship's shields in the original ID4. That's not speculative perspective, that's logical deduction my friend.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The enterprise was decimated and the shields were greatly reduced in just a few attacks. This is obviously more impressive than how easily the super star destroyer went down after one key ship hit a critical point in their ship.

The shields were gone because the power core was offline. Hence why Kirk pulled the reverse Spock Self Sacrifice to get it realigned.

2 things here - #1: you continue to ignore the context despite it being illogical. The Executor had sustained damage to it's shields and hull as per the quote. #2: The Executor is not an ISD.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Vengeance firepower>>>rebel ships that destroyed the deflector shields and the ship that crashed into it.

You say this without contextual proof. By that logic, I can claim the A-Wings actually exceed the Vengeance in firepower by the feat of taking down the Executor, and the onscreen visuals point to this as the common denominator.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Enterprise was never completely shield less despite your assertions to the contrary.

Proof? The power core was offline. The fall through the atmosphere proves this.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
How is that speculative?

Particle shields exist, because of the Hoth Asteroid chase sequence proving it so. Otherwise the Falcon would have been pulverised like the TIE fighters.

Thus, for fighters that small to approach a Star Dreadnaught grade Executor that close requires the removal of particle shields, otherwise the A-Wings would have gone up like those fighters splashing against a Cityship's shields in the original ID4. That's not speculative perspective, that's logical deduction my friend.

The shields were gone because the power core was offline. Hence why Kirk pulled the reverse Spock Self Sacrifice to get it realigned.

2 things here - #1: you continue to ignore the context despite it being illogical. The Executor had sustained damage to it's shields and hull as per the quote. #2: The Executor is not an ISD.

You say this without contextual proof. By that logic, I can claim the A-Wings actually exceed the Vengeance in firepower by the feat of taking down the Executor, and the onscreen visuals point to this as the common denominator.

Proof? The power core was offline. The fall through the atmosphere proves this.

The shields were never completely gone while under attack from the dreadnaught. That's what I meant by that comment., we know this because we clearly see the crew member say aloud shields at 6 percent iirc.

Based off the size of the explosions and damage done to shielded vessels on screen. We see how powerful the vengeance is and how out of league this ship is when compared to the Enterprise. Reference a showing in which the Executor does more damage than the Vengeance.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Logical deduction or not that doesn't override visual evidence over speculation. We always go with visual evidence and what we know without a doubt. People don't get convicted of murder on common sense the burden of proof is much higher just as it should be in Internet debating.

You said it yourself once. This isn't a court of law, nor are we lawyers. And the quotes back me up, they are official sources. That, plus the Dysney novel Tarkin backs me as well. So in either Legends EU or Dysney canon, the SW firepower calculations are there.

Originally posted by quanchi112
The shields were never completely gone while under attack from the dreadnaught. That's what I meant by that comment., we know this because we clearly see the crew member say aloud shields at 6 percent iirc.

Unfortunately, they were IIRC. They were knocked offline during the warp battle. The Enterprise cannot have it's shields up while at warp. Hence, when they were knocked out of warp, Spock was helpless. He had no shields, no weapons, and barely had main power and life support.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Based off the size of the explosions and damage done to shielded vessels on screen. We see how powerful the vengeance is and how out of league this ship is when compared to the Enterprise. Reference a showing in which the Executor does more damage than the Vengeance.

Umm, no. The explosion caused by the A-Wing's strafe dwarves anything the Vengeance did to the Enterprise.

Several examples, including utilising weapons capable of a Base Delta Zero. Vaporising the Hoth asteroids.

And again, under your logic, if we make the assumption that the Executor remained shielded and completely undamaged in that scene, then the A-Wing's exceed the Vengeance in damage capability by a few orders of magnitude. That's not a weak showing for the Executor, but an unbelievably strong showing for the A-Wings.

Originally posted by Sissy112
They do not need weapons since they will ram/board the ship and strike with precise/coordinated attacks.

And by that you mean "explode against particle shields and armor that easily shrug off star fighter impacts and asteroids", right? Because that is what would happen.

So the empire has access to a few of Krall's ships like the Enterprise crew did ?

How does that even matter?
They always cast jamming signals when they enter a space-battle. Thus will lead to instant disruption of swarm function and just kill Krall's ship before even one of them makes it into ramming distance, which - in turn - would be a futile exercise anyway.

So accept the battlezone. If I am all about logical fallacies then you'll surely win this debate. If you continue to run from my challenges you'll be that guy who just chirps and doesn't walk the walk.

Right now, you are the coward that "chirps", pointing to some battlezone that may happen somewhere in the future while outright avoiding to reply to the thread at hand. Because you just suck at debates. What a surprise, Sissy112.

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
You said it yourself once. This isn't a court of law, nor are we lawyers. And the quotes back me up, they are official sources. That, plus the Dysney novel Tarkin backs me as well. So in either Legends EU or Dysney canon, the SW firepower calculations are there.

Unfortunately, they were IIRC. They were knocked offline during the warp battle. The Enterprise cannot have it's shields up while at warp. Hence, when they were knocked out of warp, Spock was helpless. He had no shields, no weapons, and barely had main power and life support.

Umm, no. The explosion caused by the A-Wing's strafe dwarves anything the Vengeance did to the Enterprise.

Several examples, including utilising weapons capable of a Base Delta Zero. Vaporising the Hoth asteroids.

And again, under your logic, if we make the assumption that the Executor remained shielded and completely undamaged in that scene, then the A-Wing's exceed the Vengeance in damage capability by a few orders of magnitude. That's not a weak showing for the Executor, but an unbelievably strong showing for the A-Wings.

I will watch this again to make sure of the onslaught which began at warp. Later in the film we see how quickly it decimates their shields though.

That is incorrect. The explosion wasn't that big compared to the size of the holes and explosions in the enterprise due to the firepower of the vengeance. Both asteroids aren't shielded so why is this impressive ?

Not at all it's just that executor without shields is a very vulnerable and weak ship. The Ot empire is unbelievably weak despite its vastness. The First Order is damn impressive but the empire has always been weak and inefficient according to new canon.

Ps. Snoke is better than Palpatine. Kylo is better than Vader.

Originally posted by quanchi112
You may hold yourself to lower standards but do not lump me in there. Which official sources ?

The Tarkin novel and the Hoth Asteroid vapourisation calculations

Originally posted by quanchi112
I will watch this again to make sure of the onslaught which began at warp. Later in the film we see how quickly it decimates their shields though.

The shields were never restored. Nor was weapon control.

Originally posted by quanchi112
That is incorrect. The explosion wasn't that big compared to the size of the holes and explosions in the enterprise due to the firepower of the vengeance. Both asteroids aren't shielded so why is this impressive ?

Proof? The Vengeance is only measured at about 1459 meters, the Enterprise, just than half that at 756 meters. Meanwhile, the Executor is 19km. The explosion is relative to the size of the ship in question.

And the Asteroids being VAPOURISED rather than just exploded into chunks increases the firepower yield significantly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Not at all it's just that executor without shields is a very vulnerable and weak ship. The Ot empire is unbelievably weak despite its vastness. The First Order is damn impressive but the empire has always been weak and inefficient according to new canon.

Incorrect. As the quote states, the fact that the A-Wing hit the transparisteel viewplates of the main bridge rather than the hull armor is a million to one shot. Like the Death Star Thermal Exhaust Port level of lucky shot. You then have to prove that the Vengeance can first take down the shields, then actually make that shot, before getting dusted by firepower orders of magnitude higher than its own weapons.

That is an opinion you are having, and you are entitled to it. I simply disagree. The First order is simply the remnant of a much more vast and organised regime.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Ps. Snoke is better than Palpatine. Kylo is better than Vader.

Again, opinion on your part. And one that isn't relevant to the conversation, but I'm sure you'll insult me or ignore this...

Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
The Tarkin novel and the Hoth Asteroid vapourisation calculations

The shields were never restored. Nor was weapon control.

Proof? The Vengeance is only measured at about 1459 meters, the Enterprise, just than half that at 756 meters. Meanwhile, the Executor is 19km. The explosion is relative to the size of the ship in question.

And the Asteroids being VAPOURISED rather than just exploded into chunks increases the firepower yield significantly.

Incorrect. As the quote states, the fact that the A-Wing hit the transparisteel viewplates of the main bridge rather than the hull armor is a million to one shot. Like the Death Star Thermal Exhaust Port level of lucky shot. You then have to prove that the Vengeance can first take down the shields, then actually make that shot, before getting dusted by firepower orders of magnitude higher than its own weapons.

That is an opinion you are having, and you are entitled to it. I simply disagree. The First order is simply the remnant of a much more vast and organised regime.

Again, opinion on your part. And one that isn't relevant to the conversation, but I'm sure you'll insult me or ignore this...

Why would they quote the shields later on after Khan used the ship to attack if they were never in use ?

We do not see up close enough to judge the size of the Executor explosion but rather see what a small ship can do at the critical point with the shields down.

That was due to the limitations of the tech. They didn't have the advancement to shown the details so we got those generic explosions.

The Vengeance has the showings to lead one to share that opinion. We see the damage it inflicts and what firepower the rebel ships possess. As I said its a fair conclusion to have and considering the raw power, size, and speed improvements to the Enterprise I think the case is definitely made.

Vast doesn't mean superior. It wasn't efficient and already in one film we see a weapon vastly superior to the Death Star. We already saw more skilled and successful Stormtroopers than the ones from the empire.

It is just trash talking, amigo.

Originally posted by quanchi112

Vast doesn't mean superior. It wasn't efficient and already in one film we see a weapon vastly superior to the Death Star. We already saw more skilled and successful Stormtroopers than the ones from the empire.

It is just trash talking, amigo.

Not entirely.

The Starkiller base has a better attack, but the 2nd Death Star showed faster charging time compared to the Starkiller base.

The FO Stormtroopers only showed that they had melee focused combatants, their standard blaster wielders didn't show better than Empire Stormtroopers.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Not entirely.

The Starkiller base has a better attack, but the 2nd Death Star showed faster charging time compared to the Starkiller base.

The FO Stormtroopers only showed that they had melee focused combatants, their standard blaster wielders didn't show better than Empire Stormtroopers.

All of the above were shown throughout the films. In the beginning they crush the opposition without Kylo Ren. We also see how easily they overwhelm the opposition at Kanata's shit house later in the film prior to the resistance ships showing up to turn the tide. Blame Dameron.

Originally posted by quanchi112
A much better attack that took out five targets. 2dn Death Star was much smaller as well.

All of the above were shown throughout the films. In the beginning they crush the opposition without Kylo Ren. We also see how easily they overwhelm the opposition at Kanata's shit house later in the film prior to the resistance ships showing up to turn the tide. Blame Dameron.

Right, but still having a slower recharge time, the 2nd DS could take out those same targets, it would just take longer.

Neither of which are better than what the Empire Storms showed, they wrecked a Rebel defense force aboard the Tantive IV, Echo Base, Scout Troopers showing squad stealth tactics against Leia on Endor.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right, but still having a slower recharge time, the 2nd DS could take out those same targets, it would just take longer.

Neither of which are better than what the Empire Storms showed, they wrecked a Rebel defense force aboard the Tantive IV, Echo Base, Scout Troopers showing squad stealth tactics against Leia on Endor.

The Ewoks and a few rebels defeated these putzes. Han Solo alone has stormed them and made them look awful. He was overtaken with aid until Dameron Poe showed up to turn the tide in the Resistance's favor.

Originally posted by quanchi112
Which makes it an inferior weapon.

The Ewoks and a few rebels defeated these putzes. Han Solo alone has stormed them and made them look awful. He was overtaken with aid until Dameron Poe showed up to turn the tide in the Resistance's favor.

As far as attack? Yeah, but the DS has a faster recharge time.

No he hasn't, he had trouble with a single Scout Trooper on Endor H2H. The Rebel Force that then assaulted the bunker was then captured, until the Ewoks came in.

So again the FO Troopers haven't shown anything superior other than having dedicated melee combatants. The FO Storms had two showings of assaulting places and overtaking the characters, Empire Stormtroopers have shown similar and more.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
As far as attack? Yeah, but the DS has a faster recharge time.

No he hasn't, he had trouble with a single Scout Trooper on Endor H2H. The Rebel Force that then assaulted the bunker was then captured, until the Ewoks came in.

So again the FO Troopers haven't shown anything superior other than having dedicated melee combatants. The FO Storms had two showings of assaulting places and overtaking the characters, Empire Stormtroopers have shown similar and more.

Yes so as I said both the ewoks and the rebels were not defeated. They in fact defeated after outsmarting the laugh inept imperial forces.

You can believe so but I have the guy who beat Finn and Finn who at least grazed Kylo in combat with hardly any light saber training.

Originally posted by quanchi112
All in all despite the recharge time Starkiller still takes out more targets.

Yes so as I said both the ewoks and the rebels were not defeated. They in fact defeated after outsmarting the laugh inept imperial forces.

You can believe so but I have the guy who beat Finn and Finn who at least grazed Kylo in combat with hardly any light saber training.

Right I never denied that the Base didn't.

Except them defeating the Imp Forces had nothing to do with the latter being incompetent, the Rebels gained a hold of an AT-ST which the Storms didn't have the weapons to take out.

You're taking the 1% and trying to pass off that as the average FO Storm? Right. I'm not talking about Finn, I'm talking about the standard Storm.

But anyway were derailing the topic here, so I'll just stop here.

Imperial star destroyer. They're able to vaporoze asteroids that were calcd being 16 Meters in diameter in size putting the turbolasers at minimum high single digit Kilotons and they did that with point defense lasers. Scaling the diameter of a heavy turbolaser in comparison would make it be capable of shootiny iirc triple digit mega tons worth of fire power. Full broadside would be in the gigatons easily.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Right I never denied that the Base didn't.

Except them defeating the Imp Forces had nothing to do with the latter being incompetent, the Rebels gained a hold of an AT-ST which the Storms didn't have the weapons to take out.

You're taking the 1% and trying to pass off that as the average FO Storm? Right. I'm not talking about Finn, I'm talking about the standard Storm.

But anyway were derailing the topic here, so I'll just stop here.

We see a standard storm best him in one on one battle. What storms stood out in the first three films for the empire ?

Originally posted by The Merchant
Imperial star destroyer. They're able to vaporoze asteroids that were calcd being 16 Meters in diameter in size putting the turbolasers at minimum high single digit Kilotons and they did that with point defense lasers. Scaling the diameter of a heavy turbolaser in comparison would make it be capable of shootiny iirc triple digit mega tons worth of fire power. Full broadside would be in the gigatons easily.

Psst. Sissy112 doesn't like "nerd math"*.

*translating into: "math". He also isn't fond of logic, abstract thinking and thinking in general.