Naturally. Nah but really we are actually debating which era produced the better duelists, TOR or PT, with Ziggy seemingly off the opinion that almost everyone in the PT era is outclassed by their predecessors:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15813232#post15813232
Anyway time to see what cancer Ziggy has cooked up for me today. 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Naturally. Nah but really we are actually debating which era produced the better duelists, TOR or PT, with Ziggy seemingly off the opinion that almost everyone in the PT era is outclassed by their predecessors:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15813232#post15813232
Anyway time to see what cancer Ziggy has cooked up for me today. 🙂
You want cancer? Take a look at this thread.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=628947&pagenumber=2
You don't even need to smoke a pack everyday. 😉
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Naturally. Nah but really we are actually debating which era produced the better duelists, TOR or PT, with Ziggy seemingly off the opinion that almost everyone in the PT era is outclassed by their predecessors:http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=15813232#post15813232
Anyway time to see what cancer Ziggy has cooked up for me today. 🙂
Clearly he hasn't met Sheev or Yoda 🙄
@Ziggy, there is some shit in your post (beyond your actual arguments) that my computer doesn't like and won't quote, so I've pared them back a little. 😉
Originally posted by ZiggystardustHardly worth the effort friend, in your case I'd rather call a spade a spade.
Mocking is fine. I regularly endorse graceful wit supporting clever undertones, but please note however, graceful wit is not the same as calling dissenting arguments aids, cancer or Justin Beiber. I'm sure you're inventive enough to find some sarcastic riposte without coming off butthurt. But that has certainly not been the case here. I get it, you're upset. And when one is upset he is incapable of judging aright, hence the stale humour.
And if it makes you feel better, you're welcome to assume I share your salty tears. 🙂
The thing is, I didn't just suggest they were solely trained for ranged weapons, and similarly ranged opponents, but also that much of their concentration was spent learning the artful magnetism... blah blah blah.Don't you think this could have been summarised in a few short sentences, y'know, without the verbose fluff? Anyway I'm not seeing much new here. The PT Jedi existed in peace time, the TOR Jedi in wartime. Cool, that doesn't change the fact that the PT Jedi were nonetheless trained extensively in saber to saber combat, and as popular as the role of Jedi diplomat became, many still specialised in lightsaber combat (I mean do you really think Anakin spent much time honing his diplomatic skills? No lol), and even among the Consulars of the Order, many retained exceptional and lauded dueling talent.
More importantly though when push came to shove and lightsaber duelling became a necessity, those warriors among them performed. For example despite never having had the opportunity to cross swords with a Flesh raider, Qui-Gon was still capable enough to hold his own against Darth Maul in combat, one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in history. While Obi-Wan, as a mere Padawan, mustered the talent to outmanoeuvre and destroy his weapon.
Then we have Plo Koon, who despite sporting a broken arm from being buried under an avalanche, was capable of easily disarming and driving away Asajj Ventress, who Luminara Unduli fought to a standstill despite being blinded in one eye. While Kit Fisto himself was capable of effortlessly dispatching Magnaguards purpose built to kill Jedi, as well as taking on and pressing the advantage against an even more deadly Jedi Killer in General Grievous.
And there are plenty of Jedi who compare to the above through both accomplishments and praise. So evidently live combat experience isn't necessary to create exceptional lightsaber talent, just excellent training. Indeed again, a great many of these Jedi have been regarded as the greatest duelling talent in the order's 25,000 year history, some, such as Plo Koon & Sora Bulq, by objective sources, not just the opinions of their peers (backed nonetheless by authorial intent.)
Concession accepted.That would imply I was ever of the opinion that the PT Jedi are holistically better than the TOR Jedi, can you quote me?
I'm contesting your blanket assumption that all PT Jedi are poor duelists, not the more reasonable conclusion that the more diplomatically orientated PT Order would have, on average, fewer specialised duelists than their predecessors. Hint, Fisto is not among these. But sure, I concede that they'd all beat Coleman Trebor. 👆
The movie era - from an outwards perspective - contains more names than any other time period. Yet - funnily enough - you can still count the characters worth giving a shit using 10 fingers, and even with regards to your list, there are only four or five worth mentioning, or even thinking about in any meaningful way.Uh-huh and whom might those be? Yoda, favoured by Fightsaber as potentially the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order had ever seen? Or his peers, Windu and Dooku; the former of whom fought Darth Sidious, the culmination of the Banite line's advancements in combative techniques, to an impasse, and the latter one the most talented and legendary Jedi in the Orders 25,000 year history? Or Qui-Gon Jinn who again held his own against one of the most skilled Sith ever, despite being passed his prime? Obi-Wan Kenobi who took on and overcame both Maul and Savage at once? Quinlan Vos who defeated the aforementioned Dooku in combat? Kit Fisto who again effortlessly defeated magna guards and overcame General Grievous? Or Plo Koon, whose been stated to be again, one of the greatest Jedi combatants ever?
Or perhaps you meant some of their peers, such as Shaak Ti, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Even Piell, Anoon Boondara, Depa Billapa, Cin Drallig and more besides, all of whom have been either regarded and/or shown to possess considerable talent in lightsaber combat; while only representing a fraction of the 10,000 Jedi in the Order, the vast majority of whom we no nothing about. And though I haven't been counting I reckon that's more than ten.
These are people who weren't particularly trained well nor were they primed for combat, rather that their personal experiences shaped them to the become decent fighters.More conjecture, aside from the fact you've used two examples to make blanket assumptions over more than 4 times as many characters, the examples you've raised are not even accurate. Obi-Wan picked up on Soresu to become a more rounded combatant, particularly to shore up his defense, not to become a decent fighter in general. In fact he was already "exceptional" duelist by TPM according to the Ep1 Visual Dictionary, and it was his mastery of Ataru not Soresu that handed Maul and Savage their asses in TCW. And as for Quinlan Vos, the only instruction he gains after leaving the Order is in the Force, particularly the dark side, nothing suggests he improved on his saber mastery after leaving. And of course all of them mastered everything they knew without almost any duelling experience.
So besides that, do you have anything more to substantiate this point?
Son. [Oh God not another crusty old man, don't you have anything better to do?]More verbose fluff, save the lectures for someone who cares.
As for your example, that would only be applicable if we were working off so little information, but we are not. Our knowledge of the TOR era and all the factors at work are instead, comprehensive, and the points I've raised in that regard are not assumptions, but facts. It is a fact that vast amounts of Jedi lore was lost during the Sacking of Coruscant; it's a fact that many potential Jedi instructors would have died in the field before having a chance to convey their experience; and it is a fact that a constant state of conflict would limit the amount of time the Jedi would have to make comprehensive improvements to the styles (and if the effect of the New Sith Wars are any indication, less time to spend training Jedi in general).
Occam's Razor does not give you permission to ignore this evidence, I'm afraid.
Evidence that suggests that while the TOR era would have benefitted from greater practical experience, would have suffered in regards to the presence of proper instructors and instructional lore. And in that respect do not have an overwhelming advantage over the PT era, certainly not over those who specialised in lightsaber combat, who in turn would have benefitted from more dedicated, advanced and refined instruction and teaching resources.
Right now, your argument is piggybacked on some illusory evolution that the seven forms could have had, but almost certainly didn't...Which proves the basics remain the same, yet within each form there are countless moves, manoeuvres and sequences that we know little about, and there exists not compelling evidence that these remained static, which is again, illogical.
Appealing to an absence of evidence does nothing for your argument either, rather it's fallacious. The perfection of Juyo only setting a precedent for improvements to lightsaber combat being something the Jedi engaged in (in fact Anakin made improvements to Djem So in his life time), and again, the likelihood that improvements were only made once over the course of 3,000 odd years being a statistical unlikelihood, this is not a difficult concept to get your head around, but I'll be patient with you.
Unless scores of Yoda-aged Jedi were roaming between those centuries and lived well into their 900's during the Clone Wars, then this is not just a moot point, but one that is 180 degrees removed from what you're attempting to drum up.You are aware that its standard Jedi practice to record their training methods and techniques they developed for later generations? This is the point friend, the Jedi have had thousands of years to advance and improve on their combative techniques, and pass that on to subsequent generations.
But great, Dooku thinks everything that isn't Makashi and/or nobility to be shit, what's new?
And out of curiosity, how is shadowing the Republic military going to help them improve their saber skills hmm?
Firstly, as I recall the title 'battlemaster', was not exclusive to one person during Swotor, all due to - once again - the type of environment they were bread from. And Yes, it is far less humiliating than Jango taking out... eight(?) of those mooks with his bare hands. And if we really want to mention embarrassing battlemasters, Cin 'one-hit-dead'Dralig anyone?You recall wrong I'm afraid, feel free to look it up, and the guy who held the title was, yes, killed by a bounty hunter.
Whereas the fact that Jango, when fully armed, was unable to take out Obi-Wan Kenobi, despite having backup from the laser cannons on a starfighter, who would later drive away Cad Bane without suffering lasting injury, should speak volumes as to how outclassed the best fighters of the TOR era are in comparison to the best of the PT.
Cin Drallig's performance against the Chosen One being hardly relevant lmao.
You're wrong there, analyzing choreography speaks volumes to how increasingly desperate you are becoming.Friend I'm only following in your example. If you didn't want to have a discussion about choreography, you shouldn't have brought the "Great" Jensaarai into this. But you did and now your even more of a laughing stock than before. 🙂
Originally posted by |King Joker|
Quote he chopped down 500?
When negotitation no longer seemed viable, Coleman did not hesitate to draw his lightsaber. Coldman fought bravely in the Geonosian Arena, as he sliced through wave after wave of droid battalions and Geonosian Warriors.- Taken from Fact File 106
There and a Battalion of Droids is..
Battalion(784 battle droids plus support personnel.)- Taken from CWCG
At the same time, this makes Tebor's death make no sense.