Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well in all fairness Trebor taking on waves of droids and such was probably within the context of the many Jedi at his side in the arena, not single-handedly.
Seems more singular, since the quote says he sliced through. But even still, I'm not seeing his death make much sense either way.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well unless he was alone in some other arena where they were also fielding hundreds of battle droids, I doubt it.
There were actually thousands of battle droids, they just kept coming, after all, the Jedi were directly under a factory.
Count Dooku glanced about the stadium, his smile widening. "It wasn't the Geonosians I was thinking about. How well do you think one Jedi will match up against a thousand battle droids?"He had timed it perfectly. Just as he finished, a line of battle droids came down the corridor behind Mace Windu, their lasers firing. The Jedi reacted at once, spinning about and flashing his lightsaber to deflect the many bolts, turning them back on his attackers. He knew that these few droids were the least of his troubles, though, for as he glanced around he saw the source of Dooku's confidence thousands of battle droids rolling along every ramp, in the stands and out into the arena below.
But even still, I'm not seeing Trebor's death make sense anyway, in the arena alone he'd be moving, jumping and blocking/deflecting a much greater volume of blaster fire.
Yet he has trouble with Jango who's firepower output is nowhere near what would be going down below(a SBD outstrips Jango's rate of fire quite abit) and gets killed for it. Even when Trebor actually deflects the first 2 shots fired...
Originally posted by Zenwolf
There were actually thousands of battle droids, they just kept coming, after all, the Jedi were directly under a factory.But even still, I'm not seeing Trebor's death make sense anyway, in the arena alone he'd be moving, jumping and blocking/deflecting a much greater volume of blaster fire.
Yet he has trouble with Jango who's firepower output is nowhere near what would be going down below(a SBD outstrips Jango's rate of fire quite abit) and gets killed for it. Even when Trebor actually deflects the first 2 shots fired...
Could be possible he got tired from all the battledroids. Even Jedi can get tired they just have more endurance than a normal being but it's still possible. Plus wouldn't droids fire at the same spots? If someone fires simultaneously from high and low it'd make deflection a lot harder. Never paid close attention to the scene to see if this is happening or if it's relevant.
Originally posted by Chosen_Sith
Could be possible he got tired from all the battledroids. Even Jedi can get tired they just have more endurance than a normal being but it's still possible. Plus wouldn't droids fire at the same spots? If someone fires simultaneously from high and low it'd make deflection a lot harder. Never paid close attention to the scene to see if this is happening or if it's relevant.
Possible I guess...though Jango also fired at two different spots(given Coleman angles his saber in two different ways), heck there's even a brief pause before he fired a 3rd time compared to the 1st two shots that came right after the other.
As for your next does of cancer Beni.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Don't you think this could have been summarised in a few short sentences, y'know, without the verbose fluff? Anyway I'm not seeing much new here
Translation : My dearest Ziggy, I can not represent your entire argument, because there are questions and points that I don’t want to directly answer or reply to. I’d rather evade those points by reducing your post to a few bite-size sentences - and instead - ask counter-questions or make assertions that have no general bearing on the matter, while masking the fact you’ve touched a weak spot in my case. You have, as it was, reduced me to silence. So do no urge these points with more zeal, rather let me evade them so I can continue campaigning for those never seen before forms that weren’t practiced in modern times... pretty please.
The PT Jedi existed in peace time, the TOR Jedi in wartime.
Well done.
Cool, that doesn't change the fact that the PT Jedi were nonetheless trained extensively in saber to saber combat,
It doesn’t change any fact. That would require it to be fact to begin with. Late Republic Jedi were not trained extensively in - to be honest - pretty much anything. Rather that they dabbled in a broad spectrum of study and did so shallowly. As young undergraduates, they did not face trials like they would have in the Cold War, neither were they liaising with military virtuosos to get a better understanding of the Sith. Instead we see a young Qui Gon doing cliff scaling challenges, more Jedi trials with little relation to combat and a desperate rush for premature Jedi ascending the ranks - because in the Clone Wars, there was a scarcity of fighters. They weren’t prepared for such a battle, let alone a Sith uprising en masse. Then you have to look at the types of enemy they’d face up until, and during that war. Gangs such as the Black Sun, some lackluster pirate syndicates and then of course, the overwhelming number of battledroids making up the vast majority of your opposition. Whereas in the Great Galactic War, it’s more a less a case of what Sith archetype one would be unfortunately pitted against.
More importantly though when push came to shove and lightsaber duelling became a necessity, those warriors among them performed. For example despite never having had the opportunity to cross swords with a Flesh raider, Qui-Gon was still capable enough to hold his own against Darth Maul in combat, one of the most skilled and highly trained Sith in history. While Obi-Wan, as a mere Padawan, mustered the talent to outmanoeuvre and destroy his weapon. Then we have Plo Koon, who despite sporting a broken arm from being buried under an avalanche, was capable of easily disarming and driving away Asajj Ventress, who Luminara Unduli fought to a standstill despite being blinded in one eye. While Kit Fisto himself was capable of effortlessly dispatching Magnaguards purpose built to kill Jedi, as well as taking on and pressing the advantage against an even more deadly Jedi Killer in General Grievous.
Laughable. When push came to shove, those warriors not only failed, but failed so catastrophically, so rephrensivly, that almost any person who came to challenge them with a name and lightsaber could basically rival the top-echelons, save for perhaps Yoda & Windu. This rule doesn’t just stand for Force sensitives either - Vizla was a rather imposing figure with his darksaber, seen as much of his (rather stellar) battle with Maul was with the weapon itself. Which makes Qui Gon’s epic feat of dying a little less special. Regardless, Maul was hardly a Jedi-serial killer. His training - despite the overzealous assertions made in a 2001 fact file - was not that much harsher than Korriban Academy’s pratique:
Instructors of Sith acolytes, the overseers are tasked with rooting out the weak and molding the next great Sith who will lead the Empire to glory. Cruelty, manipulation, and deceit are choice tools of instruction. By demanding nothing short of perfection from their class of students, acolytes quickly learn the cost of failure. While still a young teacher, Overseer Ragate took delight in cutting down the first acolyte to stumble under her tutelage - a grim and effective warning to her suviving students. Brutality is only one way an overseer shapes Sith acolytes. Some plant the seeds of deception, showering weaker acolytes with praise to goad another student to strike them down. Others dispatch acolytes on impossible tasks in the deadly tombs or hostile wastes of Korriban. Overseer Rance was one such instructor, sending his acolytes into the lower wilds. For days, the corrupting influence of Korriban's wilds twisted their minds and drove the students mad. Only two acolytes returned to Rance. He simply smiled and ordered the exhausted acolytes to battle to the death. The victor would be Sith." - SW:TOR Encyclopedia
It has connotations with ancient Greece in their development for an army of spartans. Between the age of 18 and 20, Spartan males had to pass a fitness test that consisted of physical, military ability, and leadership skills. If he didn't pass, he became a person who had no political rights and was not even considered a citizen. The kind of fear imposed on trainees paradoxically inspires motivation, but more importantly, there isn’t time wasted on lesser acolytes. Now I can’t tell you whether Maul would have succeeded in the korriban academies, or if he would have been killed for various failings. What I do know however, is that a premature death as a trainee is probably more dignifying than getting cut in half by a Padwan Kenobi. And when you compare Maul’s life with the first Emperor's Wrath, the former is nothing short of a laughing stock. Assaj Ventress isn’t even worth mentioning.
And there are plenty of Jedi who compare to the above through both accomplishments and praise. So evidently live combat experience isn't necessary to create exceptional lightsaber talent, just excellent training. Or perhaps you meant some of their peers, such as Shaak Ti, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tinn, Even Piell, Anoon Boondara, Depa Billapa, Cin Drallig and more besides, all of whom have been either regarded and/or shown to possess considerable talent in lightsaber combat; while only representing a fraction of the 10,000 Jedi in the Order, the vast majority of whom we no nothing about. And though I haven't been counting I reckon that's more than ten. More conjecture, aside from the fact you've used two examples to make blanket assumptions over more than 4 times as many characters, the examples you've raised are not even accurate. Obi-Wan picked up on Soresu to become a more rounded combatant,
I have yet to see any exceptional talent other than the obvious candidates such as Dooku, Yoda - and considering his natural connection to the Force; Anakin. Others such as Mace, Kenobi and Vos were certainly talented - for their time - but their highest points of growth are in fact owed to combat experience. For Kenobi - when he realised Jinn was deprived of key elements in his defense fighting Maul, it influenced him to change his preferred form to Soresu. And then his next jump happened after getting handled by Dooku. It must be noted, that Kenobi is the only person to have fought and survived all three of Palaptine’s apprentices, and Dooku’s main acolytes such as Grevious. He has more experience parring Sith blade-to-blade then anyone else in his era, and those experiences shaped him immensely. Yet, he still falls short of the wartime veterans fighting the Sith empire, having less experience and therefore, less growth
Mace - Mace was very far removed from the order’s boilerplate Jedi - specifically developing a form for ‘killing’. But even then, it was not his training nor his aptitude that optimised Vaapad’s darkside challot. Rather that his experiences on the world Harun Khal and his near deathmatch with Depa Billaba, had offered him confidence in his own abilities, as noted in Revenge of the Sith. Confidence that he could open himself up to the darkside without being consumed, but use it as weapon to defeat Sidious. He certainly didn’t progress that far by sparring with Saesee Tinn in the Jedi temple.
Vos - Assuming this is canon Vos, otherwise I wouldn’t even mention him. Anyway, Vos’ pretty much goes from losing to Cad bane with Kenobi as backup, to defeating one of the only duelists worth giving a shit about in the Clone Wars. And it’s simply due to his embrace of the Darkside, his extra curricular activities with Ventress on dathomir and a potential state amplified power allowing him to get that one-out-of-ten win that wouldn’t occur otherwise.
So quite clearly, combat experience is the most important factor when it comes to producing talented lightsaber duelists - what a surprise. And that certainly is the case for our favourite characters in the PT Era. You might ask how this works to scale them, and especially against individuals who see more battlefield-turmoil in a week, than Vos has in his entire Jedi Career. The answer is - not very well. Based on all available evidence, we’re looking at Kenobi being on level with the bog standard Sith class Warrior, let alone someone like Darth Malgus. In fact, I daresay a combination of Mace, Kenobi and Vos wouldn’t be enough to challenge the False Emperor.
I'm contesting your blanket assumption that all PT Jedi are poor duelists, not the more reasonable conclusion that the more diplomatically orientated PT Order would have, on average, fewer specialised duelists than their predecessors.
Concession accepted.
[quote] Yoda, favoured by Fightsaber as potentially the greatest lightsaber master the Jedi Order had ever seen? Or his peers,[quote]
Which would mean something of worth if 1) the Fightsaber article was canon - which it isn’t 2) there wasn’t some massive gulf between Yoda and his understudies - which there is. Apparently Yoda can humiliate 3 council masters at once without much effort or riposte, he did legitimately disarm Sidious - as per the Revenge of The Sith script, and did so after a minute of fighting him. In which case, he is heads and shoulders above everyone in his time - which is in large part due to his power in the Force, but also because he has 900 years experience - and would have been in a few of the conflicts that actually required lightsaber duelling that happened in that time.