Maul, Ahsoka, Kenobi & Luke vs. Kun, Droma & Nyriss

Originally posted by Beniboybling
She was able to meet Vader's attacks head on, Dooku couldn't do the same to Anakin. Go figure.

If by meet them head on, you mean get consistently driven back by them, then yes, I'd agree. She struggles to keep a prolongued blade-lock with the guy, whereas Dooku laughs while bladelocking Skywalker on relatively even terms. And nothing really supports the notion Vader is considerably stronger than Skywalker to begin with, so I doubt Tano's sporting a significant strength edge over the Count.

Oh dear, prepare to join Chingy in the grave.

It'd help if I knew who that was.

You don't know Chingy?

❌

OK, let's review the falsehoods then. 🙂

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Dooku lost one fight against a man who could have become the most powerful force user ever and was arguably the greatest Jedi killer.

"VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they'd perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight."

-- Lords Of The Sith

And as for the greatest Jedi Killer title, that goes to Vader as well:

"Of all the monsters I have created, I still regard Darth Vader as something of a minor masterpiece. No, he was not an entirely alchemical creation, but he was my monster nevertheless. Even though he failed to live up to his full potential, there was much pleasure in transforming Anakin Skywalker from a bright-eyed, tousle-headed youth into the greatest Jedi killer of all time. Yes, he ultimately turned against his Master, as monsters sometimes do, but that was my fault, not his. Given the opportunity to create Vader again, I would, and with zeal."

-- Jedi Vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force

He'd contended with or beaten Anakin several times before that (I will admit though, Anakin was not in his prime but nor was Dooku) He could've killed Skywalker a fair few times throughout the Clone wars but Sidious would have belted him.

It's also made quite plain that Dooku is simply no match for Anakin's strength as of Revenge of the Sith, by which point he's grown "vastly" in power:

"The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious."

-- Revenge of the Sith novelisation

Face it, this wasn't one of Anakin's 4/10 wins, Dooku was losing, badly, no amount of do-overs is going to change that.

He's beaten an enraged Ventress before and after she improved, defeating Grievous before and after he improved (and then got shitter again Lel), Stalemating several times and factually beating Mace Windu whilst a sith and Jedi. He raped Tholme and Bulq TOGETHER, repeatedly beating Obi-Wan (before and after he improved) then he beat 3 Nightsisters, one being a bloodlusted Ventress, whilst blinded and drugged with only one Saber.

Only a ferocious bloodlusted Quinlan Vos and a rage fuelled Anakin were able to straight up beat him in sabers (Not including Saber gods Yoda and Sidious)

What did Ashoka do? Lose to Ventress and get ragdolled by a weak as piss Grievous that gets beaten by an army of Jar Jar's and she gets curbstomped by Barriss Offee LOL.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
I may have wanked Dooku a bit there haha 🙂 but I still refuse to believe he is less powerful than a Padawan who left the order

2. She only left the Order as a Padawan because she refused the offered position of Jedi Knight, her training was complete, and she only advanced those skills over the course of almost two decades.

Originally posted by MythLord
If by meet them head on, you mean get consistently driven back by them, then yes, I'd agree.

She struggles to keep a prolonged blade-lock with the guy, whereas Dooku laughs while bladelocking Skywalker on relatively even terms.

Which she replicates again later on but with her back turned...

The only points at which she falters are towards the tail end of an almost two minute long engagement, I'd ask Dooku to perform better after such a long time, but then he died 15 seconds later. 😉

However bladelocks aren't the most relevant when it comes to what we are discussing, as ultimately Dooku's shortcomings in strength are a result of him being unable to generate sufficient momentum, which aside from the intial clash, doesn't so much apply to what amounts to pressing against one another. Instead in terms of a general exchange of blows, Dooku admits he can't meet Anakin head on:

"Skywalker's Shien ready-stance had been a ruse, as had his Ataro gymnastics; the boy was a Djem So stylist, and as fine a one as Dooku had ever seen. His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head."

-- Revenge of the Sith novelisation

A simply cross-reference of the above extracts from RotS with Ahsoka's performance against the more powerful Vader making abudantly clear who did better in this regard. Ahsoka. 🙂

And nothing really supports the notion Vader is considerably stronger than Skywalker to begin with, so I doubt Tano's sporting a significant strength edge over the Count.

Originally posted by MythLord
❌

Good argument, Beni. I must respond to it, ASAP.

I look forward to it. 🙂

I love you, Beni. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Consistently? Not really, there are instead points in the fight where she stops his advance entirely, whereas Dooku was being constantly driven back.

Yeah, really. The entire fight, she was the one in the retreat, never fully stopping his advance. And Dooku wasn't consistently being driven back, there were indeed moment when he stood toe-to-toe with Skywalker, the best example being this:

Now, regarding the novel version of the fight, while Anakin near the end of it was indeed driving back Dooku, there's a few circumstances people seem to leave out. For one, Dooku was already tiring after playing around with a holding back Skywalker and Kenobi:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
However, only one death was in his plan, and this dumb-show was becoming tiresome. Not to mention tiring. The dark power that served him went only so far, and he was, after all, not a young man.

Next is the fact that Dooku was surprised by Obi-Wan's and Anakin's swift shift of tactics, to which an already tired Count had lost his composure which he couldn't regain, and the novel does portray this as being a big deal for the Count. In this attempt to regain his composure, Kenobi and Anakin both attacked him and Dooku managed to successfully, albeit barely, deflect both their assaults:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
And in the space where Kenobi's chest had been was now only the blue lightning of Skywalker's blade driving straight for Dooku's heart.

Only a desperate whirl to one side made what would have been a smoking hole in his chest into a line of scorch through his armorweave cloak.

Dooku thought, What?

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan. Skywalker slammed his following strike down so hard that the shock of deflecting it buckled Dooku's elbows. Dooku threw himself into a backroll that brought him to his feet-and Kenobi's blade was there to meet his neck. Only a desperate whirling slash-block, coupled with a wheel kick that caught Kenobi on the thigh, bought him enough time to leap away again, and when he touched down-Skywalker was already there.

At this point, Dooku was already tired and has yet to regain his composure and then gave ground against Skywalker, primarily because he didn't expect such strength from Anakin, and after facing the blows of Anakin did Dooku realize he was "suckered" and needed to change tactics from his playful demeanor onto something more serious:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.

Then, upon changing tactics, Dooku actually manages to dispatch Anakin and takes this time to regain his composure and possibly turn the fight to his favour, but Obi's there to aid Skywalker:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
It was time to alter his own tactics.

He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

Then Anakin is out of the picture for a long enough time that Kenobi and the Count exchange several sequences with the lightsaber, with Dooku barely noticing how Obi-Wan's defense was impenetrable due to his own underestimation of Obi's skill, and then realizing he just might lose:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this . . .

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.

So Anakin was out of the picture for a fairly long time, Dooku lost even more Force reserves, and was yet to regain his composure and refill himself with his Force reserves. Then he incapacitates Obi-Wan by drawing on the Force, and then, and only then, did Anakin actually start driving the Count back by such a noticeable degree to mark him as a clear superior:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.

That was part 1, time for part 2:

By this point, Dooku not only exhausted a good portion of his Force reserves just by playing with Obi and Annie initially, but later lost even more in a rapid rate when they shifted tactics and Dooku kept underestimating them and had been driven back. And to add to that, he's yet to regain his composure and refill himself with his Force reserves. And at this point, Anakin's blows were truly devastating, but Dooku still managed to deflect and defend himself. Then, when he called in the droids and got a chance to partially recompose himself, this happened:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"

Instantly the two droids sprang forward and lifted their hands. Energy hammered out from the heavy blasters built into their arms; Skywalker whirled and his blade batted every blast back at the droids, whose mirror-polished carapace armor deflected the bolts again. Galvened particle beams screeched through the room in blinding ricochets.

Kenobi reached the top of the stairs and a single slash of his lightsaber dismantled both droids. Before their pieces could even hit the floor Dooku was in motion, landing a spinning side-stamp that folded Skywalker in half; he used his last burst of dark power to continue his spin into a blindingly fast wheel-kick that brought his heel against the point of Kenobi's chin with a crack like the report of a huge-bore slugthrower, knocking the Jedi Master back down the stairs. Sounded like he'd broken his neck.

Wouldn't that be lovely?

There was no sense in taking chances, however.

While Kenobi's bonelessly limp body was still tumbling toward the floor far below, Dooku sent a surge of energy through the Force. Kenobi's fall suddenly accelerated like a missile burning the last of its drives before impact. The Jedi Master struck the floor at a steep angle, skidded along it, and slammed into the wall so hard the hydrofoamed permacrete buckled and collapsed onto him.

He not only landed a kick that folded Skywalker in half, he also dispatched Kenobi with a combination of unarmed combat and the Force. And by this time, he would've recomposed himself, if immediately after dispatching Kenobi he wasn't met with a kick from a now angry Anakin:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
This Dooku found exceedingly gratifying.

Now, as for Skywalker-Which was as far as Dooku got, because by the time his attention returned to the younger Jedi, his vision was rather completely obstructed by the sole of a boot approaching his face with something resembling terminal velocity.

The impact was a blast of white fire, and there was a second impact against his back that was the balcony rail, and then the room turned upside down and he fell toward the ceiling, but not really, of course: it only felt that way because he had flipped over the rail and he was falling headfirst toward the floor, and neither his arms nor his legs were paying any attention to what he was trying to make them do. The Force seemed to be busy elsewhere, and really, the whole process was entirely mortifying.

He was barely able to summon a last surge of dark power before what would have been a disabling impact. The Force cradled him, cushioning his fall and setting him on his feet.

He dusted himself off and fixed a supercilious gaze on Skywalker, who now stood upon the balcony looking down at him-and Dooku couldn't hold the stare; he found this reversal of their original positions oddly unsettling.

By this point, after being kicked in the face by Anakin with his guard down, Dooku did manage to "drop the weight of age" through the Force, but Anakin also got enraged. Granted, he wasn't fully abusing his rage, holding it back, but now Dooku did sense and understand Anakin's anger and hatred, meaning it did start playing a dominant role in their fight, which the reason Skywalker drove him back now:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith novelisation
He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

And this follows Dun Moch, which Dooku used to nearly win, and Sidious then motivating Skywalker and Dooku dies brutally.

The picture the novel is clearly painting for us, from my interpretation anyway, is that Dooku was already tired when the two fooled him into a false sense of security. Then, Dooku wasted even more reserves when they surprised him and shifted to a much more masterful application of their fighting forms, and also threw Dooku out of his composure which, again, the novel indicates is a big deal. Dooku couldn't recompose himself for most of the fight and kept losing his Force reserves, yet still dispatched both Obi-Wan and Anakin and had it not been for the intervention of the other, either might've died at least it would've given Dooku and opening to refill his Force reserves and regain his composure. This would, for obvious reasons, not bode well for either Kenobi or Skywalker.

And despite all of this, the movie actually shows Dooku managing to bladelock Anakin to a stand-still until his Dun Moch effect backfires, alongside Sidious' motivations, and the junior novelisation supports this:

Taken from: Revenge of the Sith junior novelisation
Dooku smiled, and echoed Anakin’s thoughts. “I sense great fear in you, Skywalker.” He shook his head, as if Anakin were a particularly slow student. “You have power, you have anger — but you don’t use them.”

And I’m not going to, Anakin told himself. That’s the way to the dark side. Pushing his fear aside, he tried to forget the balcony crushing Obi-Wan and the intent expression on the Chancellor’s face as he watched the battle that would decide his fate. Anakin made himself focus on the fight, and only the fight.

All of the super battle droids had been cut down; only Anakin and Dooku were left. Down the long length of the room they fought, neither one able to gain an advantage. He’s old, Anakin thought. Maybe I can just outlast him. But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going as long as he needed. What am I going to do? I have to beat him, or the Chancellor and Obi-Wan are dead. Not to mention me….

Behind him, he heard Chancellor Palpatine calling something, trying to be heard over the crackle and hum of the lightsabers. “Use your aggressive feelings, Anakin! Call on your rage. Focus it, or you don’t stand a chance against him.”

Anakin hesitated. The Chancellor was no Jedi; he couldn’t know about the dangers of the dark side. He only cared about getting out of there alive. And there’s only me to do it. Surely he could risk the dark side just this once, in order to save the Chancellor and Obi-Wan. He looked at Dooku and let himself feel the emotions that he had been keeping so tightly controlled.

Rage poured through him. This was the man who had belittled him, who had kidnapped Palpatine and nearly killed Obi-Wan, who had cut off Anakin’s hand and tried to have Padme put to death. Anakin used his anger the way he normally used the Force, letting it guide his lightsaber. Faster and faster he moved, and then his lightsaber came down and severed Count Dooku’s hands.

And the comic, while vague, also shows Anakin only gaining an advantage over Dooku whilst enraged and with Sidious' additional motivation:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Struggles? Again not really, in fact despite being in a compromising position she initially manages to stop his advance and throw him off:

Which she replicates again later on but with her back turned...

Except, everytime we visibly see Ahsoka's expression while she bladelocks with Vader, she seems to be experiencing some major difficulties:

Meanwhile, I can give you a ton of examples of Dooku bladelocking with Skywalker and actually pushing him back with one hand without any evident issue:

^ Just two off the top of my mind above.

CROP THE IMAGES WOLLF

Too many goddamn images.

Wasn't Skywalker holding back early in their duel though?

Ahsoka vs Dooku?

Prolly Dooku.

And part 3:

Originally posted by Beniboybling
However bladelocks aren't the most relevant when it comes to what we are discussing, as ultimately Dooku's shortcomings in strength are a result of him being unable to generate sufficient momentum, which aside from the intial clash, doesn't so much apply to what amounts to pressing against one another. Instead in terms of a general exchange of blows, Dooku admits he can't meet Anakin head on:

What Dooku notes is that Makashi simply isn't a good style to generate momentum and meet Anakin's Djem So head on, especially when he has Kenobi for aid. This is true, but it doesn't mean Dooku will automatically be devastated whenever he attempts to bladelock with Anakin, as I've already shown above. In fact, against other extremely strong -- both physically and in the Force -- duelists like Yoda, Dooku did manage to meet their strength head-on with no issue:

Taken from: Attack of the Clones novelisation
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through

So Ahsoka certainly isn't beating the Count by way of strength, and he can contend with Vader, certainly.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
A simply cross-reference of the above extracts from RotS with Ahsoka's performance against the more powerful Vader making abudantly clear who did better in this regard. Ahsoka. 🙂

Well yes, Tano did do better, albeit not by an exponentional margin, but it should be noted Dooku had more circumstances against him than Ahsoka did in her duel with Vader.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
With his growth in power + cybernetic augmentations? I'd say so, yeah, even by Lords of the Sith he's described as stronger than the Lylek queen. 👆

So far, Vader's connection to the Dark Side has grown, but it doesn't automatically mean he's more powerful than Skywalker overall. And even if he subscribe to this idea, Vader's strength wouldn't have improved by a considerable margin.

That's about it. Looking forwards to your counter, Beni.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Wasn't Skywalker holding back early in their duel though?