@Beni:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
OK, she's pushed back a few inches, I'd still argue that is holding one's ground. And as I explained to Sel, if you look at the fight you'll find she largely holds her position around the corner of the Temple for the portion of that fight, just with greater difficulty.
As for the omitted part, I'd rather not get into eyeballing the distance so I'll say this much; considering that Ahsoka was fatigued towards the latter end of the fight, and considering at the beginning she actually gains an advantage over Vader, it can be argued that if she were so inclined, she could have held her ground even better than she did so here. Which is pretty impressive.
Now concerning Dooku fending off Obi-Wan and Anakin; as far as contending with the strength of the latter is concerned, no, Dooku remains miles away from Ahsoka's performance, doing even worse than he did after dispatching Kenobi:
So after three strikes Dooku almost gets sliced up, let's just compare that to the gif I posted:
I count more than twice as many strikes from Vader, and zero injuries from Ahsoka who loses inches in ground, after which she loses no more than a meter or so, compared to Dooku back-pedalling "as fast as he dared."
The colossal difference in performance alone makes up for Dooku's fatigue and lack of composure. The fact that Ahsoka is again, also fatigued (arguably at this point even more), fighting against a stronger Vader, and meeting his strikes largely head on, makes her performance the decisively better one imo.
Yeah, again, holding your position against Vader for a few seconds with difficulty isn’t outside of Dooku’s capabilities, at all. Not when he’s holding his ground against both Obi-Wan and Anakin collectively, with the disadvantages I’ve already listed.
As for Anakin hammering Dooku’s defenses: that was before Dooku realized how strong Anakin is and how skilled he became in Djem So. He was still tricked into a false sense of security and was expecting Anakin to be just as strong as he was before, i.e. his attacks would only be easily deflected/blocked. It’s also worth noting that Anakin’s primary over-head slice at Dooku only slid across the Count’s defenses, which means despite Anakin’s rapid change in performance that the Count hadn’t yet adjusted to, he still blocked all three strikes. Therefore, your comparison holds no weight.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well that's essentially what I said, that with more reserves to draw on he'd find Anakin's assault less taxing. But the mimimum power required for Dooku to block Anakin's attacks would remain the same, he's not getting any weaker.
This is true, but it should be noted that the amount of reserves Dooku needed to block Anakin’s blows was just described as “more than the amount of power he needed to dispatch Kenobi“, which was nothing more than a negligent whipcrack of his power. More than that isn’t really hard to beat, so it makes the amount rather ambigious. And before you say it “aged him a decade“, that’s more-than-likely because he already wasted a good portion of his Force reserves.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And if Ahsoka needed to use up that much energy to block Vader's attacks (or rather more as he's stronger) she would have been exhausted very very quickly, but she wasn't, therefore she didn't.
She seemed damn fatigued after a one minute long battle, though. What’s also noteworthy is her style is simply much better suited than Dooku’s to meet strength blows, Vader wasn’t nearly as relentless as Anakin was, and she did more deflecting than blocking the blows head-on, whereas Dooku was forced most of the time to have a rapid exchange of blows with Anakin.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
As for your scenario, well that's conjecture I'm afraid, and when Dooku did restore his reserves and regain his compsure, he was still being decisively driven back.Well his ability to land "hits" on them is a matter more of speed (and skill) than strength. Though if you which to discuss that I would point out that at the beginning of the fight Ahsoka was all over Vader who was struggling to keep up:
Where she lands two hits on him, in fact. So she's no slouch in that department. .
You’re missing the point. I’m saying if a Dooku with so many disadvantages – lack of composure, inferior leverage, outnumbered and exhausted – was capable of landing a hit on Anakin and Kenobi that, both times, left them out of the game for a substantial time, then who’s to say Dooku can’t use that time to land a killing blow? That’s more than a certainty, unless Dooku has mental retardation not to attack a defensless opponent.
Also, by the time he recomposed, Anakin was already getting enraged, as both the novel and RotS script note how he’s growing stronger through his rage and only now does Dooku sense it. And still, despite that, the movie shows Dooku clearly, while laughing, stalemating Skywalker in a bladelock and the movie is, for all intents and purposes, a superior source canonically. Not to mention, Anakin, at this time, had attacked Dooku with the strength the Count didn’t anticipate, so it’s the same thing as above all over again – he anticipated weaker attacks, thus his blocks were weaker and that’s why he was driven back:
Taken from: StarWars.com/Count Dooku Databank
He first defeated Obi-Wan, Force choking him and nearly crushing the Jedi Master with a heavy railing. An enraged Anakin continued the fight, unleashing a strength Dooku had not anticipated.
Part 2:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But always with great difficulty, and twice over expresses meeting Skywalker head on is simply not viable: And the way he says this in broad terms suggests its more to do with just fatigue.
He said he can’t meet Anakin strength-to-strength under those circumstances, which is true. But that doesn’t mean he was helpless in his duel with Skywalker. That’s clearly not true. And Makashi isn’t a form to produce the kinetic energy to deal with Djem So, which is also true. But Dooku still managed despite said weaknesses.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
By which you mean? I believe that they possessed equally mitigating circumstances, making them directly comparable.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well that's largely the point, Dooku's form is a significant factor in his inability to compete in the strength department. Does she possess enough of an edge to exploit Dooku's weakness? Yes I believe so. And I'll take this opportunity to reiterate Dooku's duel with TCW Anakin on Naboo and address your points in that regard:
Ahsoka? She really doesn’t have the strength to exploit his weakness – not when EU Grievous and Mace Windu couldn’t. She’s not as strong as they are, nor as relentless. She’s also not even as relentless and strong as TCW Anakin, who also fails most of the time to overpower Dooku. Simply said: I don’t see any of the people I listed getting driven back by Vader in a strength engagement, not nearly as conclusively anyways.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Simply put I find your assessment off, no Dooku was not on the offensive, but that shouldn't have hampered his defense. Furthermore Dooku proclaims at the beginning of the fight that "defeating you alone will be an easy task", yet ends up falling into a full retreat. We don't see what occurs between the gap in the duel, but we can assume Anakin succeeds in driving Dooku out of the dining room.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And while yes initially Dooku appears successful in blocking and deflecting the Count's attacks, in the latter half of the fight I referenced he shows clear signs of difficulty, and his stamina begins to seriously flag. His face is contorted with strain, he's grunting with exertion, his attacks become sloppy, and the only reason Anakin kicks him to the stairs is because he reveals a lapse in his defense, which we can assume is the result of fatigue. The fact that Dooku is then able to throw him off with his Force powers, doesn't change the fact he was undoubtedly on the losing end of that engagement, and Palpatine's grin tells it all. It's foreshadowing his ultimate defeat in RotS.
The kick Anakin landed wasn’t any massive defensive lapse. If it was, the Count would’ve been pierced by Skywalker’s blade rather than his foot. It’s instead a desperate way to get Dooku in a lesser position to make it easier to break his guard – which he failed to do. And despite Dooku’s inferior leverage, he still keeps Anakin’s blade at bay while choked and even pushes Anakin back, thus giving him an opening to use his Force powers:
It’s faint, but if you look at the top left corner of the screen, you see Dooku pushing Anakin’s blade back before using lightning.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point I'm making here is that you don't need to be RotS Anakin or Vader level to exploit this weakness. Anakin before growing "vastly" in power was able to do so decisively here, and frankly Ahsoka's ability to contend with Vader and Maul suggests she's not be far off that level at all.
Never was Anakin, prior to RotS, conclusively overpowering Dooku. The Count, in fact, was overpowering him at times.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
To reinforce this point as of her prime in Dark Disciple, Ventress was also strong enough to drive Dooku back, if only temporarily:
An enraged Asajj, and in a novel that has more inconsistencies than all of TCW – one moment Dooku is dancing around her and Vos, the next moment either can just go rage-mode and defeat him. Besides, the Count dominates her twice just in that book via physical strength, and dominates Vos who also choked Asajj like a beyatch.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Ahsoka should again, be quite a bit stronger than Ventress, and on top of that wields Djem So, so should be able to press him even harder. Altogether I think the bar is quite a bit lower than you believe.
I don’t think it’s quite a bit, and even if it was the Count still dominated Asajj and Ventress is far more aggressive in her duels than Tano is, anyways.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sure but that's not supported by other sources, even the script says Dooku was tired.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's not a very good example though, considering Dooku hadn't just fought a marathon engagement, then been blown away by a Force user who can explode Lyleks.Um, he just fought Mace and Kenobi and endured a massive explosion being in his close proximity. :/
[QUOTE=15819589]Originally posted by Beniboybling
[B]Here's a better one:
So arguably even Dooku would have been hard pressed to recover from that fall, nor does she land neatly on her feet. Instead when it cuts back 30 seconds later she's sprawled on the floor and appears to be recovering from unconciousness:A disabling impact indeed, I would think. 👆
Except, again, you’re ignoring context. Dooku had his guard down, Anakin was enraged, and still it was the kick that disabled Dooku, not the fall. And the Force Push Vader threw out at Ahsoka is something I doubt is rivalling the Force Push he threw out against the Lyleks because, unless you give me proof Ahsoka is unharmed by blasters, she would’ve been reduced to goo.
And part 3:
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, its pretty obvious she was exhausted considering after throwing herself at Vader she collapses the floor, and struggles just to get to her feet:So yeah, it's impressive, and under similar circumstances Dooku would not have escaped without injury. 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nah, as you yourself said, Dooku doesn't need the high ground to generate leverage. He does this through positioning, pay attention to his footwork, he uses his stance to act like a spring and throw off Anakin's attacks. You'll also notice that Dooku never allows Anakin to properly bring his strength to bear, his attacks are almost entirely focused on off-balancing his opponents and he evades as many of Anakin's strikes as he parries.
Indeed. And if he can exploit it against Skywalker, he can exploit it against Tano.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Anakin never really gets an oppurtunity to focus down Dooku with his strength, and that plays to the Count's advantage, as he's able to keep his stamina up. In a 1 v 1 engagement however, and this applies to Ahsoka as well, though he's capable of applying all these tactics, in order to win he'd need to do more than just off-balance and evade, he'd have to press his advantage with a counter-attack, and therefore be more direct with his opponent and their strength. In which case his stamina would flag and his parries would become less effective.
And indeed, when facing Anakin alone, he didn't do as well, as I've already covered.He was winning the first time, and the second fight was a stalemate. I say that because although Kenobi and Anakin were falling over one another, Dooku was doing nothing to press his offence. So it was an impasse.
How is facing Anakin in a 2v1, not giving Anakin exemplary time to abuse his strength and apply his tactics with alacrity? And how would it help Dooku’s stamina, when he also has to think about Kenobi. As RotS shows, that’s quite the opposite case.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless my point is that none of these fights represent peak-Anakin, so they don't discount Dooku's performance in RotS.
It shows it’s a much closer fight than originally expected, and that the Count can
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yet never managed to win in this way, merely delay his defeat. Regardless I don't deny that Dooku's skill gives him an edge over Ahsoka, and will net him a number of wins, but I'd still argue that 5-6 times out of 10, his stamina would luck out.
But nah, she's combatively stronger than Grievous, and close to TCW Anakin. 🙂 👆
He would be more than capable of winning in this way, if it wasn’t for Kenobi’s interference and several other factors hindering him. He had Anakin sprawled out on the floor for several seconds and would’ve likely sliced and diced him if it wasn’t for Obi-Wan stalling him 👆
And if he can get to refill his reserves and regain his composure after such negative circumstances after fighting a duo of two combatants that are each superior to Ahsoka... then I doubt his stamina will give in when he duels her. And she’s not stronger than EU Grievous, and not really that close to TCW Anakin. She’s also not nearly as unpredictable/relentless/aggressive as either, and her Jar’Kai makes it hard for her to use strength-based attacks.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Bladelocks are different, as I've already covered, as they are less reliant on momentum and therefore the force of gravity literally pulling Yoda back to earth. And against Sidious he was standing atop the podium regardless.
Now this is true, but what’s noteworthy is that Fact File 34 seems to think that the Count and Yoda are near-equals in a duel, and that Yoda only perhaps has a slight edge, which is likely in the way of his superior physicals/Force reserves.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah don't know about that, its pretty unprecedented for saber attacks to create kinetic repulses of any kind, so its more likely he simultaneously struck out at them with the Force, to stop them intervening. Which is an impressive feat for Windu, but has no bearing on Dooku's ability to handle his strength.
Actually, bladelocks have caused shockwaves that could be heard in a multi-kilometer radius and have caused shockwaves that break the rocks underneath the two people clashing. If you hit something with enough force/strength, it’s certainly going to create powerful shockwaves in-turn. And nothing shows us Mace is using the Force to dispatch them, nor does it look like a Force attack – there’s a wave or surge coming through the ground and knocking them back.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But sure, it's no suprise that Dooku can block an attack from Windu, Ahsoka does plenty of that (without being staggered) in her fight against Vader, and Dooku swinging at him in turn doesn't mean Windu had been pushed on the defensive lol, they are just exchanging blows.
I’d say blocking a straight on bull-rush from Mace is as good as deflecting Vader’s blows, maybe even better, given Mace has superior momentum in this case and comparable strength to Vader. Also, my point is that Mace went in on the aggressive and made two attacks attempting to drive Dooku back, but instead got himself put on the defensive by the Count’s attack. A clear change of pattern from what the engagement initially was.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did he now? Could you quote the feat sounds interesting. But fair enough, this is several years before Vader's prime however.
And Kenobi did this pre-prime, and was still dominated by a hindered Anakin physically. Also, Kenobi could also do this:
Beats up a group of Ratataki enforcers(an enforcer of a Hutt has challenged Chewbacca and is a confirmed one-tonner) right after going through days of torture and wearing a Sith mask that deafened him from the Force. And, one of course also has breaking Savage’s knee, breaking stone restraints by flexing, is unharmed by being blasted through a concrete wall by Asajj Ventress, etc. And Dooku had no trouble meeting his attacks or physically incapacitating him.
Food for thought 👆