Originally posted by The_Tempest
You and I are two people who are united in an open and mutual disrespect for one another. There's a refreshing clarity in that and we don't need to bother with what would otherwise be farcical civility. I think you're a moron and you think I'm one. I encourage you to find the integrity in that.
Damn.
Originally posted by NaiIt's not specific, but considering Plagueis only notes his apprentice's increment in power after he returns to Sojourn 8 years later, as opposed to straight after the ritual, it evidently was not instantaneous.
Again: False interpretation. The part that you quoted doesn't indicate when the effect manifested, just that it is there eight years later. In the same regard, Plagueis does just consider himself and Sidious. What other Dark Siders would he mention in that particular regard - especially when considering the context of the chapter: Which is the narrative of the entire balance shift, that Sidious and Plagueis caused.
And Maul perhaps? I don't recall any mention of him growing more powerful in the Force in the entire novel, and indeed he only notes on the imbalance in the Force after his return over a decade later.
Instead much like when Plagueis died, causing the dark side of the Force coalesce around Sidious; I would assume that Plagueis and Sidious causing the dark side to ascend would too result in it cosmically aligning with those responsible for its ascendance, rather every two-bit dark sider in the galaxy. Once again supported by Plagueis' repeated observations that they and they alone had gained sovereignty over the Force.
In fact this is the express purpose of the Rule of Two, to concentrate the power of the dark side in a few, rather than many. And the fact that it was (supposedly) felt by everyone proves nothing in this regard.
Since you failed to present proof for the idea that the effects of the balance shift manifested slowly (contradicted by the fact that Plagueis is capable of killing / reviving Venamis on the same day, which is testament to an increase in terms of power) and that it does discriminate (countradicted by the idea of Plaguies that pretty much every force user should instantly feel it), there doesn't seem to be much difference.Is it? Or is it a result of the midichlorians in Venamis simply becoming more compliant? Considering that Plagueis describes the difficulty in manipulating midichlorians to be consequence of their attempts to resist his actions:I also don't see any possibility to directly compare the effects of the balance shift to the effects a nexus would have on a Force user.
"As we attempt to wrest the powers of life and death from the Force, as we seek to tip the balance, the Force resists our efforts. Action and reaction, Sidious. Something akin to the laws of thermodynamics. I have been audacious, and the Force has tested me the way Tenebrous sought to. Midi-chlorians are not easily persuaded to execute the dictates of one newly initiated in the mysteries. The Force needs to be won over, especially in work that involves the dark side. It must be reassured that a Sith is capable of accepting authority. Otherwise it will thwart one's intentions. It will engineer misfortune. It will strike back."And that the Force was indeed "won over" when they tipped the balance, it stands to reason that Venamis' midi-chlorians "which should have been inert and unresponsive", became suddenly pliable not because Plagueis has grown more powerful in the Force, but simply because they were no longer resisting his efforts to control them.
I fail to see and evidence for the idea, that the change was "permanent". If the increase of midichlorians was caused by the shift in balance, it stands to reason that restoring the balance could - and would - also lead to the opposite effect. How long that would take is entirely unknown, since we also don't know how long it took for this effect to manifest.By that logic you'd have to argue that a sufficient level of dark side potency should be required to sustain their respective midichlorian counts; and yet we know that even more powerful dark side entities, such as Abeloth and the Son, existed prior to this shift. So no, there is no reason to assume the dark side receding would cause them to abruptly die off, when they should be capable of sustaining themselves in its absence.
First: We're still dealing with the "real life problem", that the entire DE storyline was conceived before the introductioin of the "balance of the force" idea. Secondly: We're also dealing with the problem, that "balance of the Force" required the death of Sidious who doesn't die before the events of DE exactly. Thirdly: There are more then enough explanations for Sidious increasing in power, despite the restoration of the balance in the force.Real life problems being largely irrelevant to in-universe continuity unless they take the form of a retcon - and I'm familiar with none regarding the fulfilment of the prophecy of the Chosen One - so we can dismiss that point.
On the other hand I feel you'd be hard-pressed to argue that Palpatine reading up on his Sith books would outweigh a gravitonic shift in the Force.
That research would be conducted by individuals who were extremely reluctant to share any kind of knowledge. Furthermore did you dodge the question: How would that make individuals more powerful and why would Plagueis contrast personal power to "more research"?Which is probably why the knowledge was lost. A good point.
As for your question 1. it wouldn't, and that's not what Plagueis was considering, rather their knowledge of the secrets of immortality; 2. because he is considering two different means of achieving the same result, via a) power or b) knowledge.
On the other hand yes, contrasting personal power to what essentially amounts to personal power, as you're suggesting, would be rather redundant. Whereas contrasting power to knowledge makes a lot more sense.
Urm. Context?Exactly, it wouldn't make sense so you've evidently misinterpreted what he said. Fact being fact, not "if" or "maybe." He's not speculating at all, your reading is just wrong.
He is obviously speculating on that front. Had he viewed it as fact, that the Dark Side had been stronger in that time, there would be no need to question wether people using the Dark Side would have benefitted from that or not. But he is, quite obviously, asking wether that was the reason for them beeing more powerful or their individual strength in the Force.
I wonder how his actual knowledge regarding Sith Lore compares to the knowledge of Ancient Sith, who had centuries (and in Vitiates case more than a millenium) to broaden there knowledge, experiment, increase their skills or, simply put, to become more powerful. That he knew the stuff that Vitiate and Kun were capable of doesn't mean he was capable of it himself. The study of his midichlorians might enable him to cast an accurate judgement about his own abilities but it doesn't help him to accurately determine the powers of long dead Sith Lords.The point of his statement is that he believes himself capable of everything he knows the Sith to be capable of i.e. there is nothing he knows them to have accomplished which he himself could not replicate. Which given the number of holocrons he has access to, and his knowledge of Sith lore, should be quite considerable (likely including the feats performed by Exar Kun, and the legends surrounding Emperor Vitiate, including his feat on Nathema).And the "most powerful Sith" novel blurb comes from "Darth Plagueis"? Because that phrase is present in the book just once, used by Sidious.
Especially when we consider that most if not all of the major feats the ancient Sith accomplished are documented by several in-universe historians. And yes, considering he is in a position to accurately assess his own abilities, should be considered a valid claim.
Granted that leaves Plagueis as limited as we are in assessing the powers of "long dead Sith Lords" based on what they achieved alone, but in that respect he has us checkmated. As far as a feats-based argument is concerned, any evidence of their accomplishments we could use as evidence Plagueis would be feasibly aware of too (and by his claim, able to replicate). While any case made on whatever unknown powers the ancient Sith might possess, would be categorically founded in conjecture.
And yes, the novel blurb states Plagueis to be the most powerful Sith in history (prior to his death at the hands of Palpatine):
Which is essentially what good Hego claims to believe in the text, and reinforces the validity of his claim. 👆
Originally posted by AncientPowerErm, I'm not here to shit on Kun (that's only fun with you dear) I'm using Nai as an intelligent soundboard for my thoughts and arguments on the Banite Sith. 👆
Nai isn't actually arguing Kun's supremacy for the sake of Kun respect, I hope you realise. Kun is just one scapegoat in a long line, Nai's actual purpose is to win the decade old grudge match with Gideon's Palp wank.In other words, you are infact wasting your time, Beni.
Originally posted by The EllimistNaturally. 🤣
Beni is an upper tier debater tbh
The point of his statement is that he believes himself capable of everything he knows the Sith to be capable of i.e. there is nothing he knows them to have accomplished which he himself could not replicate. Which given the number of holocrons he has access to, and his knowledge of Sith lore, should be quite considerable (likely including the feats performed by Exar Kun, and the legends surrounding Emperor Vitiate, including his feat on Nathema).
Hate to burst your bubble Beni, but as long as publisher summaries are excepted as canon, than you'll also except this :
"Gravid was an invention of mine. I needed some way to distance Plagueis from the ancient teachings and powers.
―James Luceno
Given that Gravid's defining act was to destroy Sith lore, then one can infer that Plageuis doesn't have access to their feats. So we're bak to killing random Maladians.