Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by JKBart
If you really think overpowering Revan with Lightning is Valky's best feat then I'm afraid you're entire SWTOR behind my friend 🙂 🙂

To respond to this seriously, what are Valkorion/Vitiate's best feats? Certainly not dominating featless and already unstable pre-KotOR Revan and Malak on a dark side nexus, or one-shotting a dark council on said nexus with prep, on his own turf, using a technique he conveniently never replicates. I'm hoping it isn't beating Tol Braga, or the Act I Hero, or some random nobodies, or one-shotting powerhouses like Darth Marr. And it's kinda sad if it's the prepped, nexus-driven Ziost ritual.

Like, seriously, what has Valkorion done exactly to put him on peak Luke's level? Has he tanked the telekinesis of a guy drawing on the Force potential of trillions? Has he moved black holes? Has he pinned a >Vader Force user to his chair without even gesturing? What has he done?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There is clearly a correlation between general power and individual abilities, and one of Luke's traits is how quickly he learns and develops techniques. The lightning itself instantly killed a Force resistant slayer, a sick one being able to best Kyp Durron.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
If that doesn't work he just ragdolls.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
To respond to this seriously, what are Valkorion/Vitiate's best feats? Certainly not dominating featless and already unstable pre-KotOR Revan and Malak on a dark side nexus, or one-shotting a dark council on said nexus with prep, on his own turf, using a technique he conveniently never replicates. I'm hoping it isn't beating Tol Braga, or the Act I Hero, or some random nobodies, or one-shotting powerhouses like Darth Marr. And it's kinda sad if it's the prepped, nexus-driven Ziost ritual.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Like, seriously, what has Valkorion done exactly to put him on peak Luke's level? Has he tanked the telekinesis of a guy drawing on the Force potential of trillions?

Raynar Thul was a below-average Jedi prior to his transformation. And it is unclear how much the killiks would have augmented his strength. Certainly not enough to challenge Luke Skywalker.

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Lord Vivicar was drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters across the galaxy and Barsen'thor III kicked his @ss even after experiencing deteriorating effects of a shielding technique.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Has he moved black holes?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Has he pinned a >Vader Force user to his chair without even gesturing? What has he done?

Luke

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You deserve an award for your lowballing efforts.

Nice argument.

Force-potential of trillions? Kindly remind me what UnuThul have done in the grand scheme of things that is worth boasting about?

You know, how you brag about how Vitiate had the power of 8000 sith lords, .i.e. substantially less midichlorians?

UnuThul has mentally dominated scores of Jedi at once, bent back turbolasers, and threatened Luke, though appealing to the latter is circular. That he didn't appear for a large number of pages doesn't negate his power; that's just a question of exposure.

Raynar Thul was a below-average Jedi prior to his transformation. And it is unclear how much the killiks would have augmented his strength.

It was trillions of them.

Certainly not enough to challenge Luke Skywalker.

That's the point, lmao.

But I would note that Luke is described as "the essence" of an immovable object, and that a black hole wouldn't have budged him - we've already been over the literal nature of this quote, of which it is indeed literal - but I'm not going to go over debating your second language with you.

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Lord Vivicar was drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters across the galaxy and Barsen'thor III kicked his @ss even after experiencing deteriorating effects of a shielding technique.

Your downplaying of the same hype you employ regularly for your own favorites is funny enough, but hundreds of Jedi masters =/= trillions of killiks, obviously.

You mean Vong manifestations? Something that a Darth Vader level individual could pull off?

Nice circular logic there, but the fact that they're artificial doesn't change the mechanisms/physics behind them, and ergo how we can calculate their masses. To suggest otherwise, you'd have to demonstrate that the mechanism in question is fundamentally distinct. You employ the same logic to dismiss Palpatine's Force storms.

Seriously, this is like claiming that bending stress doesn't apply to "artificial" objects, only "real" ones.

Darth Caedus being stronger than Darth Vader isn't solidly established.

It's more solidly substantiated than your own frequent usage of in-person characters such as Nyriss to assert claims of events 1000 years before their birth.

So once again, we have Luke demonstrating far superior combat speed, versatility, telekinesis, and dominating of a superior combatant (Caedus) to anyone Valkorion has defeated. Luke steamrolls. 👆

Nice job with your "nuh uh" argument ellimist. Truly classic work 👆

Luke sweeps in an insanely close fight.

I can see a case being made either way tho, tbh. At least in regards to Force and all-out.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo

I can see a case being made either way tho, tbh. At least in regards to Force and all-out. [/B]

👆

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Luke sweeps in an insanely close fight.

I can see a case being made either way tho, tbh. At least in regards to Force and all-out.

From Luke's weaker showings he would lose, but peak, non-jobbing Luke beats him every time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice argument.

1. Pre-KoTOR Revan and Malak are featless and unstable?
2. One-shotting a Dark Council on a nexus with prep?
3. Prepped nexus-driven Ziost ritual?

You overlooking certain elements in the story and lowballing accomplishments of Vitiate as a consequence.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You know, how you brag about how Vitiate had the power of 8000 sith lords, .i.e. substantially less midichlorians?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
UnuThul has mentally dominated scores of Jedi at once,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
bent back turbolasers,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
and threatened Luke, though appealing to the latter is circular.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That he didn't appear for a large number of pages doesn't negate his power; that's just a question of exposure.

Why not extend this logic to characters you are not much fond of?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It was trillions of them.

I told you that Raynar Thul was a below-average Jedi prior to his transformation. He became powerful by drawing from the strength of Killicks but not to an extent that he would be perceived as the most powerful Force-user in the galaxy. He could not defeat Luke Skywalker and its a negative for him.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
That's the point, lmao.

But I would note that Luke is described as "the essence" of an immovable object, and that a black hole wouldn't have budged him - we've already been over the literal nature of this quote, of which it is indeed literal - but I'm not going to go over debating your second language with you.

Luke Skywalker cannot resist the pull off a cosmic black hole in literal sense, should he find himself in the Event Horizon. I am sure that Luke won't be enthusiastic about experiencing a cosmic black hole.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Your downplaying of the same hype you employ regularly for your own favorites is funny enough, but hundreds of Jedi masters =/= trillions of killiks, obviously.

Did Palpatine become unstoppable by drawing on the energy of Byss's population? No

Did Abeloth become unstoppable by drawing on the energy of Coruscant's population? No

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Nice circular logic there, but the fact that they're artificial doesn't change the mechanisms/physics behind them, and ergo how we can calculate their masses. To suggest otherwise, you'd have to demonstrate that the mechanism in question is fundamentally distinct. You employ the same logic to dismiss Palpatine's Force storms.

Seriously, this is like claiming that bending stress doesn't apply to "artificial" objects, only "real" ones.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's more solidly substantiated than your own frequent usage of in-person characters such as Nyriss to assert claims of events 1000 years before their birth.

Darth Vader have relatively superior feats.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
So once again, we have Luke demonstrating far superior combat speed,

Vitiate have killed (incredibly fast) Force-users before they could even react.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
versatility,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
telekinesis,

Originally posted by The Ellimist
and dominating of a superior combatant (Caedus) to anyone Valkorion has defeated. Luke steamrolls. 👆

Darth Caedus proved to be a pain in the @ss of Luke in the long-term, imagine what Vitiate would do to him.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Nice job with your "nuh uh" argument ellimist. Truly classic work 👆

Ellimist's arguments are 10x better than LeGenD's lol.

psmith is wayyyyyy too biased to notice that, dude.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Hundreds of Jedi Masters, collectively, represent a substantial pool of energy to draw from. Even trillions of mooks won't offer equal reservoir of strength.

Did Palpatine become unstoppable by drawing on the energy of Byss's population? No

Did Abeloth become unstoppable by drawing on the energy of Coruscant's population? No.

Huge double standard here. Vivicar didn't come close to being unstoppable. A severely weakened Act I Consular trounced him and still had enough left in the tank to use the Shielding Technique on him again to exorcise Morrhage's spirit. The Plague is literally the only thing to Vivicar's credit. He's obviously a rather pitiful combatant.

Not to mention that it's hilariously glaring strawman. Nowhere did Ellimist claim that UnuThul was unstoppable.

I think it's a reference to some quote about Vivicar being unstoppable, which is, of course, hyperbole and contradicted by the fact that a severely weakened Act I Barsen'thor (who doesn't even count among the elite pantheon of Jedi, especially in that state) trounced him with enough left in the tank for another application of the Shielding Technique.

Morrhage/Vivicar's a skilled alchemist, but not a skilled combatant 👆

I'm hoping this isn't the quote where Vivicar claims that "Soon I'll be unstoppable" or something to that effect. I mean, if we're going off character statements about themselves, then Palpatine once said "I am the dark side" which is checkmate to Valkorion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Huge double standard here. Vivicar didn't come close to being unstoppable. A severely weakened Act I Consular trounced him and still had enough left in the tank to use the Shielding Technique on him again to exorcise Morrhage's spirit. The Plague is literally the only thing to Vivicar's credit. He's obviously a rather pitiful combatant.

This is strawman.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Ellimist's arguments are 10x better than LeGenD's lol.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Never said that Vivicar was unstoppable.

You had Palpatine and Abeloth's Drain feats marked down as inferior to Vivicar's feeding off hundreds of Masters because they weren't unstoppable. Why would that matter unless Vivicar is? Logical fallacy either way.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You had Palpatine and Abeloth's Drain feats marked down as inferior to Vivicar's feeding off hundreds of Masters because they weren't unstoppable. Why would that matter unless Vivicar is? Logical fallacy either way.