Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Strawman again.

Your point was a strawman, because nobody advanced the pre-requisite of being "unstoppable", hence your mentions of it as apparent pre-requisites in Palpatine and Abeloth's cases are red herrings and strawmans. You're also appealing to ignorance if you're suggesting that Vivicar ambiguously feeding off hundreds of Masters in an unquantified proportion is inherently better than feeding off trillions of Killiks.

I'm addressing exactly what you brought up - not something non-existent. So it's not a strawman in my case 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
How can a question be a strawman?

Yet another logical fallacy.

I am simply pointing out that leeching off energy of billions of mooks doesn't results in substantial gain in power in a short span of time. The examples of Palpatine and Abeloth reinforce this assessment.

Vivicar was leeching off energy of hundreds of Jedi Masters and his growth in power might have been faster. He felt that he would surpass everybody, given sufficient time. I did not claim that Vivcar actually surpassed UnuThul, Palpatine and Abeloth at the time of his confrontation with Barsen'thor.

I edited my post, and you did make that argument. I'll ask again - why did you bring up being "unstoppable" unless you're portending that it was a trait of Vivicar's? After all, your argument was that hundreds of Masters > trillions of Killiks.

The last time I asked, you said it was a strawman, LOL. Now that's a textbook strawman.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are attributing an argument to me that I never made. Therefore, strawman.

And you attributed an argument to Ellimist that was never made. Therefore, strawman on your part. It's not a strawman on mine to point it out.

I am simply pointing out that leeching off energy of billions of mooks doesn't results in substantial gain in power in a short span of time. The examples of Palpatine and Abeloth reinforce this assessment.

How so?

Vivicar was leeching off energy of hundreds of Jedi Masters and his growth in power might have been faster than the others.

So an appeal to ignorance?

He felt that he would surpass everybody, given sufficient time.

And Palpatine felt that he was the dark side. Try again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
How so?

Palpatine failed to outduel Luke Skywalker, right?

Abeloth failed to defeat her enemies, right?

So why should I believe that leeching off energy of billions of mooks would make substantial difference in a short span of time?

Originally posted by SunRazer
So an appeal to ignorance?

Originally posted by SunRazer
And Palpatine felt that he was the dark side. Try again.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And you attributed an argument to Ellimist that was never made. Therefore, strawman on your part. It's not a strawman on mine to point it out.

Ellimist claimed that UnuThul might have become super-strong by virtue of leeching off energy of supposedly trillions of killicks. And that Luke Skywalker had to be > a supermassive cosmic black hole to mute his assault. This is nonsense. I had to remind him that UnuThul did not benefit from leeching off energy of a large number of killiks as much as you are implying; he failed to defeat Luke Skywalker and/or enslave every Jedi in the galaxy. I cited examples of Palpatine and Abeloth in this respect, to lend credibility to my stance on the matter.

Legend, I want to you lay your cards out on the table more clearly. What, in your opinion, are Valkorion's 5-7 or so most important feats/accolades that you think give him the win?

Luke solidly

Valkorion in a phenomenal fight.

I see a strong argument for either being made. Valkorion has numerous ways to avoid engaging in a melee conflict, primarily his teleportation, which also gives him the advantage of easily getting into superior vantage points for Force assaults. Luke is definitely fast enough to avoid most of Valkorions attacks, and strong enough to defend against most (if not all) of his powers that Luke knows. While this is a large possibility, we have no evidence of this, so it will not be considered. We don't have many TK feats for Valky of major note (at least ones comparing to anything Luke has done), so Luke obviously has an advantage here. I would consider Emerald Lightning to be extremely potent, however, I don't personally believe that it can, nor should, be seriously compared to Valkorion's as being equal. I would scale the lightning feat from chapter 8 of KotFE to be at least on par with Luke's Slayer one, but we know that it is not his maximum output of power. Arcann states that it's weaker after surviving the primary focus of Valkorion-Outlander's onslaught. We can scale how much weaker by observing the instance of Valkorion downing Arcann with a smaller, nearly uncharged blast of FL, and a significantly larger, effort-filled assault being resisted briefly by Arcann. Granted he presumably grew in power since his last encounter with his Father, but I digress. Overall, I'd give a slight edge to Valkorion in all-out assuming Luke can't get an opening to abuse his melee advantage, in which case he would win.

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Valkorion in a phenomenal fight.

Based on what feats/abilities/accolades? EDIT: I guess you elaborate below.

Valkorion has numerous ways to avoid engaging in a melee conflict, primarily his teleportation, which also gives him the advantage of easily getting into superior vantage points for Force assaults.

I think it's a dubious assumption to say that Valkorion can just teleport arbitrarily without any exertion, seeing as how he doesn't do this on many occasions when it would benefit him. It seems more likely that this skill requires some level of concentration and expenditure.

I would consider Emerald Lightning to be extremely potent, however, I don't personally believe that it can, nor should, be seriously compared to Valkorion's as being equal. I would scale the lightning feat from chapter 8 of KotFE to be at least on par with Luke's Slayer one, but we know that it is not his maximum output of power. Arcann states that it's weaker after surviving the primary focus of Valkorion-Outlander's onslaught. We can scale how much weaker by observing the instance of Valkorion downing Arcann with a smaller, nearly uncharged blast of FL, and a significantly larger, effort-filled assault being resisted briefly by Arcann. Granted he presumably grew in power since his last encounter with his Father, but I digress. Overall, I'd give a slight edge to Valkorion in all-out assuming Luke can't get an opening to abuse his melee advantage, in which case he would win.

The lightning just disabled some electronics on some ships. Luke has:

- used TK to literally crush to dust a fortress that reached above storm clouds and then tossed it all away, before his prime
- mused about how he could tear the hulls off of warships
- tanked the TK of someone who could arc back turbolasers
- pinned to his chair a guy (Caedus) more powerful than Darth Vader, who we can powerscale off of Starkiller

I don't see how Valkorion is overwhelming him with lightning, he doesn't have the edge in TK, he's not touching him with TP, he's obviously not lasting long in melee, at most he can teleport around and play cat and mouse for a bit.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I think it's a dubious assumption to say that Valkorion can just teleport arbitrarily without any exertion, seeing as how he doesn't do this on many occasions when it would benefit him. It seems more likely that this skill requires some level of concentration and expenditure.

Granted, if we were to ignore in-game combat, not that we shouldn't 99% of the time.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The lightning just disabled some electronics on some ships.

Correction: it killed the pilots and damaged some circuitry (it's not evident how much or what was affected).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Luke has:

- used TK to literally crush to dust a fortress that reached above storm clouds and then tossed it all away, before his prime
- mused about how he could tear the hulls off of warships
- tanked the TK of someone who could arc back turbolasers
- pinned to his chair a guy (Caedus) more powerful than Darth Vader, who we can powerscale off of Starkiller

I acknowledge these things, and agree on all of your TK points (as stated in my previous post).

Originally posted by The Ellimist
I don't see how Valkorion is overwhelming him with lightning, he doesn't have the edge in TK, he's not touching him with TP, he's obviously not lasting long in melee, at most he can teleport around and play cat and mouse for a bit.

I explained the lightning part, agree with the TK point, don't necessarily disagree with TP either, and again melee we share views, however, we don't know for sure his limitations on teleportation, nor do we have solid examples of situations where Valkorion can resist Luke's TK, but it can easily be inferred that he has substantial defenses against such attacks (if we were to permit assumptions here, which is frequently necessary when discussing hypothetical engagements such as this). Overall I agree that Luke would more likely hold the victory edge here, but not by so much as to give him any clear-cut win.

Valkorion can stop time so he wins.

I think Skywalker can win in a fight, but Valkorion is more powerful.

Originally posted by Tondemonai ]
Correction: it killed the pilots and damaged some circuitry (it's not evident how much or what was affected).

Right, and honestly that's less destructive power than what Luke can do with his TK anyway.

I acknowledge these things, and agree on all of your TK points (as stated in my previous post).

Right, so if Valkorion's demonstrated lightning is weaker than what Luke has outputted, it's a stretch to argue that it could overwhelm him.

we don't know for sure his limitations on teleportation,

Sure, but it's a logical conclusion given his lack of abuse of it. In either case, I think Luke has better Force feats anyway.

nor do we have solid examples of situations where Valkorion can resist Luke's TK, but it can easily be inferred that he has substantial defenses against such attacks (if we were to permit assumptions here, which is frequently necessary when discussing hypothetical engagements such as this).

Sure, and we don't really have an upper limit on Valkorion's abilities - given what he's demonstrated, he hasn't been as impressive combatively as Luke as his peak. That doesn't mean he couldn't blow up a planet in the next expansion, but is it probable? Nah.

Overall I agree that Luke would more likely hold the victory edge here, but not by so much as to give him any clear-cut win.

Oh, ok. I think the ambiguity comes from the lack of upper limits - I don't think it can be disputed that Luke has better showings.

Overall I personally believe that Luke would win an all-out confrontation roughly 60% of the time, given that we don't have any real known limitations on Valkorion's power we can easily assume when he's giving a shit he would be far more impressive than what we've seen, but again, what we've seen isn't very impressive combat-wise beyond his FL feats.

On the subject of the chapter 8 feat, it's impressive for the fact that what was doing that was just the rollover energy of the blast; as in the excess stuff that wasn't focused on the primary target and just escaped the intended target. The magnitude of the focal blast must've been massive, but we can only speculate how powerful it really was, and how powerful it would've been had it not been "weaker" than it normally would've been.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
UnuThul failed to defeat Luke Skywalker, right?

Palpatine failed to outduel Luke Skywalker, right?

Abeloth failed to defeat her enemies, right?

So why should I believe that leeching off energy of billions of mooks would make substantial difference in a short span of time?

Leeching and channeling are different things. UnuThul was literally capable of drawing on the Force potential of all the Killiks, as the text states. Palpatine slowly feeding off Byss isn't comparable, nor is Vivicar, who had actually yet to feed off all those Jedi Masters, or at least in any meaningful way.

10,000 Jedi collectively > population of a planet in the aspect of Force-sensitivity. Perhaps population of several planets put together.

Vivicar mentioned hundreds, not tens of thousands of Jedi. And it's trillions of Killiks. If you understand what that number is, you'll understand that it's tens of billions of times greater than what Vivicar mentioned. Somehow I don't think the fact that they're Jedi make up for tens of billions of times difference in magnitude.

Irrelevant.

Except you were talking about what Vivicar boasted to a Jedi, and I responded in kind with something that Palpatine boasted to a Jedi to expose the flaws in using that logic. Sith are full of themselves and make presumptive boasts to intimidate their opponents or out of sheer arrogance.

My point is that neither are correct. So yes, my point is relevant, or else you'd be saying that your point was irrelevant. Take your pick.

Also the combined midichlorian count of trillions of non-Force sensitives is still greater than that of hundreds of Jedi, even if you ignore the fact that only UnuThul is explicitly stated to have direct access to their potential.

The fact that it explicitly mentions him drawing on their Force potential means its valid to bring up the midichlorian argument, tbh, as stupid as it is. And trillions of Killiks >>> Hundreds of Jedi. There's not that many more midichlorians per cell or even overall for each Jedi.

And Vivicar wasn't actually leeching off all those Jedi in any meaningful way yet, IIRC.

Please, that's definitely not how UnuThul worked. Trillions of non-force sensitives is collectively greater than Luke's potential as well, yet a serious Luke trashed him and was able to make himself utterly immovable by UnuThul's TK. Lets not pretend that Thul was leeching off of the Kiliks in a meaningful way either.

Luke's full potential is supposed to be analogous to Anakin's, which is what, Father tier?

Or Luke is that powerful. 🙂