Anakin Skywalker vs. Mace Windu

@Ares: There's no quote saying he doesn't employ it and there's no source saying he does in any of those fights. It just seems plain to me he wasn't given his performance against each of them. Against Bulq a loop should have provided him with an easy win given the weequay's animal ferocity and savage fury.

I provided the quote for Makashi and Djem So above.

"That doesn’t suggest form advantage. No form is meant to go head-to-head with Djem So. That’s sorta the whole point of the form, it’s users use strong brute force attacks to batter away at people."

I'd imagine a user employing Juyo or Ataru against a Djem So practitioner of equal skill would fair equally well in an offensive. The quote itself makes not that Makashi specifically fairs badly against Makashi.

Originally posted by Syndicate
@Ares: There's no quote saying he doesn't employ it and there's no source saying he does in any of those fights. It just seems plain to me he wasn't given his performance against each of them. Against Bulq a loop should have provided him with an easy win given the weequay's animal ferocity and savage fury.

I provided the quote for Makashi and Djem So above.

It's almost like when Windu fights Palpatine, there's a major difference between the opponent he's currently facing and the one's he faced prior.

Oh right, it's f***ing Palpatine.

And now we have Windu put head-to-head against the Chosen One himself. Hm, I wonder if he's going to fight with the same mindset as he did against Bulq.

🙄

Given standard Anakin doesn't have any feats that are vastly superior to Mace's prior opponents I don't see why he would.

Originally posted by Syndicate
@Ares: There's no quote saying he doesn't employ it and there's no source saying he does in any of those fights. It just seems plain to me he wasn't given his performance against each of them. Against Bulq a loop should have provided him with an easy win given the weequay's animal ferocity and savage fury.

No, it shouldn't have. The loop allows him to turn his opponents power back against them effectively making the two opponents relatively equal. People act like this is a one-time thing for Windu but nothing in the novelization really suggested that. Rather it suggests he learned from the events from Horuun Kal and so he was able to use Vaapad more effectively than ever before.

“There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—

Neither did he have power over it.”

Originally posted by Syndicate
I'd imagine a user employing Juyo or Ataru against a Djem So practitioner of equal skill would fair equally well in an offensive. The quote itself makes not that Makashi specifically fairs badly against Makashi.

No, it doesn't. And the “head-to-head” is referring back to Dooku being unable to straight up block Anakin’s blows “strength-to-strength” from the paragraph immediately before something no form is going to want to do. Plus, as we see shortly after this, Dooku uses Djem So’s own weakness against Anakin. I guess Dooku has a “form advantage” as well.

Plus, as we see shortly after this, Dooku uses Djem So’s own weakness against Anakin. I guess Dooku has a “form advantage” as well.

@Ares: If Mace is superior to Bulq and Bulq's own power is added to his I think the outcome should have been pretty clear.

It suggest that he was able to enact the loop because of the desperation of his situation and because his own emotions were in turmoil causing his own inner darkness to grow.

No what doesn't? It makes no mention of other forms having a weakness to Djem So. Only Makashi. Understanding the weaknesses of other forms and your form being actively weak against another are not the same thing.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Great point. 👆 [/B]

Not at all.

Originally posted by Syndicate
@Ares: If Mace is superior to Bulq and Bulq's own power is added to his I think the outcome should have been pretty clear.

But that’s not how it works. It doesn’t add their power to his. It reflects their own power back; it’s a loop and the two are almost perfectly equal. The novel makes this clear.

Originally posted by Syndicate
[B It suggest that he was able to enact the loop because of the desperation of his situation and because his own emotions were in turmoil causing his own inner darkness to grow. [/B]

Where?

Originally posted by Syndicate
No what doesn't? It makes no mention of other forms having a weakness to Djem So. Only Makashi. Understanding the weaknesses of other forms and your form being actively weak against another are not the same thing.

It doesn’t mention Makashi is weak to Djem So either…

^ Correct in fact in that whole passage the word "weakness" is only used to describe Djem So's lack of mobility.

It mentions that Makashi has trouble defending against the kinetic force that the form Djem So generates. While many characters are physically strong it doesn't mean they can fully take advantage of this without a form that plays to their inherent advantages. We see this when Anakin and Obi Wan are employing other forms against Dooku before they make the switch to Djem So and Soresu and most importantly we see Anakin growing frustrated with his inability to press Dooku when he's not using Djem So.

By emphasizing how Palpatine being the Sith Lord shattered Mace's greatest love and the fact that he was fighting the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history.

Except it does...

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Correct in fact in that whole passage the word "weakness" is only used to describe Djem So's lack of mobility.

Which isn't about one form having an advantage over another but a general weakness of the form itself. Like Juyo practitioners having trouble against multiple opponents.

Originally posted by Syndicate
It mentions that Makashi has trouble defending against the kinetic force that the form Djem So generates. While many characters are physically strong it doesn't mean they can fully take advantage of this without a form that plays to their inherent advantages.

And like I said, every form is going to struggle meeting Djem So “strength-to-strength” or “head-to-head”. Once again, the point of the form is brute force.

Originally posted by Syndicate
We see this when Anakin and Obi Wan are employing other forms against Dooku before they make the switch to Djem So and Soresu and most importantly we see Anakin growing frustrated with his inability to press Dooku when he's not using Djem So.

It’s almost as if Anakin was using a form he hadn’t mastered as a ruse…

Originally posted by Syndicate
By emphasizing how Palpatine being the Sith Lord shattered Mace's greatest love and the fact that he was fighting the most powerful Sith Lord in galactic history.

And? Somehow that indicates that the superconduting loop was a onetime thing?

And some are going to struggle more then others.

Granted but the fact of the matter is that for all his strength he wasn't capable of pressuring Dooku in any way using a form that didn't play to his advantages.

To me, yes. He's never been in this heightened of an emotional state and he's never fought an opponent this powerful and most importantly he's never been shown to demonstrate this ability outside of his fight with Sidious.

Originally posted by Syndicate
To me, yes. He's never been in this heightened of an emotional state and he's never fought an opponent this powerful and most importantly he's never been shown to demonstrate this ability outside of his fight with Sidious.

Too your knowledge. And the novel attributes the loop to him no longer fearing the dark due to the events in Shatterpoint not because he was desperate or fighting against Palpatine.

Yes, too all of our knowledge as it's never specified within the lore. It says that hearing Sidious was the Sith Lord shattered his very being or something along those lines. One can assume that with greater inner darkness to draw on and a greater amount of darkness to draw on from your opponent it's going to make it more likely for Mace to successfully employ the superconducting loop.

One can assume. But one wouldn't have proof or evidence.

Just like you don't have proof or evidence that he could or did enact it outside of his fight with Sidious. 🙂

Retarded lowballing. Why would Vaapad's very functionality change because Mace was amped?

Originally posted by Syndicate
Which isn't about one form having an advantage over another but a general weakness of the form itself. Like Juyo practitioners having trouble against multiple opponents.

That's great, but it was specifically noted as a "weakness" Dooku could take advantage of. Where's Makashi was never noted as having a "weakness" that Skywalker could take advantage of.

As a form you mean? I wouldn't expect it would be especially good against Djem So.