Darth Vader vs Dooku (Force only)

Started by The_Tempest8 pages

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Using another Quanchi argument?

Firstly I don't think Han Solo would actually be a better pilot than either Yoda or Sheev. He'd do well to be on par with Obi-Wan IMO given the advantages the Force gives.

Secondly given Han Solo doesn't actually use the Force to pilot, I'm not sure what that has to do with Power in the Force.

And Lastly, even if somehow Han Solo can pilot better than Sheev or Yoda, they could easily take him out Via Tk even in a dogfight, given Sidious can force choke Dooku from Lightyears away.

No not really. You just think I struggle with that notion in particular because I've always stuck up for Maul, Dooku and Vader. I used to argue for Dooku and Anakin beating Mace Windu. That doesn't mean I'm anti-Mace, just that I was pro-Dooku/Anakin/Vader.

And yet we have no evidence that canonically they are extraordinary pilots, though I agree that they can probably hold their own if only due to the Force. So your logic would mean Han Solo is "more powerful" than Yoda. But you wouldn't say it because it's a dumb thing to say lol.

I suspect that you say it only to troll quan.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
That's a point.

I don't actually know which people they belong to. Do you have the relevant excerpts?

Well, when Auben takes them to the hangar the sequence goes like this:

Taken from: Jedi Quest: Showdown
The passageway made a sudden turn, and they came to a partially demolished wall. Auben stepped over the stones and jumped into a chamber a little larger than the one they left.

"There's a whole system of passageways that were once hidden," she explained. "I guess the big monks used to spy on the rest."

That sounded like standard Sith procedure to Anakin. Trust was not part of Sith doctrine. It seemed to Anakin to be a bleak way to live.

Auben led them down a bigger hallway. They went steadily downward, deeper and deeper into the complex. The walls began to weep with moisture. Anakin guessed they were now in the part of the monastery buried in the mountain.

They went through so many twists and turns that Anakin wondered if they'd have to use tracking devices to get out again. Even with his Jedi memory skills, he was beginning to feel disoriented.

At last, Auben paused. "What I'm about to show you isn't visible from above." She pushed open a rotted door.

Anakin followed. An ancient ship stood in the middle of a large space. He had never seen anything like it. Crude and clunky, it must have been state-of-the-art at one time. The afterburner tanks were huge.

"This was probably from before the sublight engine was perfected," Anakin said, half to himself. Under normal circumstances, he would love to investigate the ancient technology of the ship.

Around it, various decaying parts of what looked like droids were littered, models so old he couldn't identify them. He saw sheets and shards of durasteel and other metals on the floor and realized they had once been servodrivers, valves, and pumps, the hoses long decayed.

"It's a service bay," he said. "We must be near a landing hangar."

"You got it," Auben said. "Look."

She led them through the open arch, into the darkness. Anakin stepped out and released a breath. The hangar was so vast, it ended in darkness. Service bay after service bay ran down each side of the hangar, waiting to repair the ships that no longer arrived. Hulking wrecks of ships still littered the floor, bits of metal that had once been droids, decayed tanks. Huge statues of terrifying creatures from many worlds marched on either side down the hangar. The statues had crumbled and cracked over the years. Some were headless, and the huge heads had fallen and crumbled into blocks of stone.

It's a hangar, in a monastery, inside of a mountain, filled with statues of monsterous creatures, on Korriban. Those are ancient Sith cruisers, to be sure.

Plus the fact that some of the vehicles to Anakin look ancient and new, would suggest that it's not Jedi Starfighters.

Remember, Dooku one-shotted Ventress (alternatively Vos) with lightning 🙂

As far as ANH Vader being below Dooku....errr....not sure about that unless purely canon.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet we have no evidence that canonically they are extraordinary pilots, though I agree that they can probably hold their own if only due to the Force. So your logic would mean Han Solo is "more powerful" than Yoda. But you wouldn't say it because it's a dumb thing to say lol.

I suspect that you say it only to troll quan.

Well no, because I don't believe Solo could take Yoda, Mace or Sheev in a dogfight, so that's not my logic at all.

Given Vader's supernatural ability to solo a Rebel fleet, if Sheev, Yoda, or Mace can even be Half as effective in a dogfight, then Solo wouldn't stand a prayer. Plus there's always Force choke, so...

And there's plenty of evidence of even all Jedi/Sith in general having supernatural piloting abilities, which I'm sure I don't have to go through.

lol at Yoda trying to pilot a ship

Dark Times Vader collapsed a Cathedral while half-dead, and exerting and a decent amount of his power, just to stay alive.

ANH Vader, would still murk Count.

How large was the cathedral?

Not sure.

We know it was big enough to sport an underground Labyrinth of sorts, and that it took 2-3 days to dig Vader from underneath the collapsed rubble, IIRC.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
And yet we have no evidence that canonically they are extraordinary pilots, though I agree that they can probably hold their own if only due to the Force. So your logic would mean Han Solo is "more powerful" than Yoda. But you wouldn't say it because it's a dumb thing to say lol.

I suspect that you say it only to troll quan.

FYI to make my stance clear, for argument sake say Han Solo could take Savage Opress in a dogfight, I still wouldn't call Solo more powerful than Opress due to how completely out of his league he is in every other department. Plus something like Force choke is a potential danger anywhere really, on the ground, in the air or potentially even in space.

Originally posted by Kurk
lol at Yoda trying to pilot a ship

He has done. S6 TCW. Has his own little Jedi fighter.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
FYI to make my stance clear, for argument sake say Han Solo could take Savage Opress in a dogfight, I still wouldn't call Solo more powerful than Opress due to how completely out of his league he is in every other department. Plus something like Force choke is a potential danger anywhere really.

He has done. S6 TCW. Has his own little Jedi fighter.


Yeah but navigating it and dog-fighting aren't quite the same.

Maul ragdolled Sidious, Dooku can do the same
https://youtu.be/YxrMEQlTMvs?t=1m10s

Only thing Dooku can ragdoll is his sagging balls.

Originally posted by Kurk
Yeah but navigating it and dog-fighting aren't quite the same.

The ship's made to his size and specifications. All Jedi and Sith are trained in using the Force to pilot (and dogfight).

The fact that his Jedi ship has canons is proof enough he is capable of using them.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The ship's made to his size and specifications. All Jedi and Sith are trained in using the Force to pilot (and dogfight).

The fact that his Jedi ship has canons is proof enough he is capable of using them.


All? I didn't know that.

^ Well do you know one whose not? Pretty sure it's a standard part of Jedi training.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nope lol. Much like Caedus with Luke, Dooku was legitimately helpless against Sidious. I was simply saying that if he could have acted in some way to defend himself, he would have, especially in that particular context.

The point is simply that the choking scene unto itself isn't proof of this, because it could also just be Dooku not wanting to fight back (which isn't proof of being in ragdoll territory). The case for ragdolling comes from other sources independent of that sequence.

Anyway, it hardly matters given that we never really know how a Vader vs. Sidious fight would go down either.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
The point is simply that the choking scene unto itself isn't proof of this, because it could also just be Dooku not wanting to fight back (which isn't proof of being in ragdoll territory). The case for ragdolling comes from other sources independent of that sequence.

Anyway, it hardly matters given that we never really know how a Vader vs. Sidious fight would go down either.

Nah. I think we've established that if Dooku could have fought back, he would have, especially in that situation. Even reflexively; he's gagging, clawing impotently at his own throat.

Just like Maul fought back when Sidious was torturing him to build up pain tolerance. 👆

I'm sure Dooku would naturally try to resist the choke.

Passively, maybe.