Originally posted by The Ellimist
He didn't even have a debilitating injury, just a bad knee.
Umm, no. He also had a chest injury too, tbh.
"Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt."
--- Excerpt from Legacy of the Force: Inferno
Ok, that was from his first fight with Lumiya months(?) ago. It may have affected him, but to suggest that it and a bad knee would put him below his RotJ self is ridiculous. That's forty years of growth in the Force under the guy with the second most potential in galactic history. Vader matched base RotJ Luke and then got utterly destroyed in every capacity by an enraged one; Caedus fought an enraged but moderately injured grandmaster Luke and lost while dishing out some injury. It's not an apt comparison.
And again, what's your metric for comparing them?
Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku stomps cuz everyone thinks Caedus sucks now. 🙂
Yeah I dunno why. He's above Vader as a Force user and his dueling ability is really high relative to his strength in the Force, seeing as how he definitely did better against Luke in a duel than a Force fight, and Luke himself has a pretty high dueling skill: Force power ratio. So if he's already more powerful than Dooku by a considerable margin, he's likely to win in a duel too.
Originally posted by Trocity
Dooku stomps cuz everyone thinks Caedus sucks now. 🙂
Because we are now looking into his actual showing and analyzing them for what it is.
He isn't above Vader as a Force user, and isn't that much better as a duelist -- if, at all. Sure we can luke at his showings against a heavily injured Luke with the environment to bail him out, but why ignore his other less impressive showings?
Why ignore that fact, that Lumiya, was able to contend with Luke twice, even fend him of for a bit when he though he killed Mara and was more blood-lusted than he was against Jacen? So is Lumiya > Vader as well, despite all signs saying phuck no?
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
He isn't above Vader as a Force user,
He is, by official statement, and your opinion that publishers don't have creative license over Star Wars is both wrong and arbitrary. To go against that, you'd need strong evidence against the notion - and you haven't provided any.
and isn't that much better as a duelist -- if, at all. Sure we can luke at his showings against a heavily injured Luke with the environment to bail him out, but why ignore his other less impressive showings?
Yeah, still waiting on your justification for how forty years of growth from the most prodigious combatant and Force user in the mythos is offset by a scar from several months before and a bad knee. 👆
Why ignore that fact, that Lumiya, was able to contend with Luke twice, even fend him of for a bit when he though he killed Mara and was more blood-lusted than he was against Jacen?
Luke wasn't even that bloodlusted when he fought Lumiya the last time (the earlier ones were circumstantial, Lumiya had hostages, etc.). You'd expect him to be, but he was consciously remaining calm. In either case, this wasn't a "fight" that Lumiya put up beyond lasting for a while because of the reach advantage of her whip; she never got a hit in on Luke, unlike Caedus who put him in a bacta tank.
And actually, think about the mechanics of fighting someone with a light-whip while you have a lightsaber. How, exactly, are you supposed to win that?
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Yeah I dunno why. He's above Vader as a Force user and his dueling ability is really high relative to his strength in the Force, seeing as how he definitely did better against Luke in a duel than a Force fight, and Luke himself has a pretty high dueling skill: Force power ratio. So if he's already more powerful than Dooku by a considerable margin, he's likely to win in a duel too.
I disagree, Luke is higher in terms of force powers than he is in dueling. He's hardly as dominating a figure in melee as he is when he actually uses his power.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I disagree, Luke is higher in terms of force powers than he is in dueling. He's hardly as dominating a figure in melee as he is when he actually uses his power.
I'm basing this off of his performances against Vader and Wankatine, but now that I think of it, it may be true that this ratio was skewed towards dueling early in his career but flipped a little post-NJO. Regardless, he hasn't declined as a duelist - he's still massively beyond Vader seeing as how he was matching him four decades before his prime.
He is, by official statement, and your opinion that publishers don't have creative license over Star Wars is both wrong and arbitrary. To go against that, you'd need strong evidence against the notion - and you haven't provided any.
Novel blurbs aren't canon. If so, provide evidence that explicitly says so.
Yeah, still waiting on your justification for how forty years of growth from the most prodigious combatant and Force user in the mythos is offset by a scar from several months before and a bad knee.
1. You can't properly measure just how powerful the rage amp was that Luke received. For all we know, he could have been tapping into a significant amount of his potential to come, in that one specific instance.
2. It's also worth noting, that Vader wasn't going 100% in his duel with Luke --- sources have indicated his resolved wavered, and he was emotionally conflicted.
3. Was it really months before? If so, Luke scar happened months before, than why did it take him so long to heal from it? Even so, He was still majorly affected by it, given after the hit was delivered at that spit, his breathing was vitiate significantly.
Again, your arbitrary bullshit needs actual backing. Prove a heavily hindered Luke in a era where he has a penchant for jobbing is above a rage amp Luke that was holding zero back.
@Neph: Desann was empowered by the Valley of the Jedi and Lumiya is a pretty capable duelist with a lightwhip that's pretty tough to deal with (how do you, exactly?).
I don't think he was at his best against Lumiya; he was emotionally wrought from Mara's death, but it's not like he was using his anger in a dark side way, so it was just weighing him down. Plus it doesn't seem like he was interested in killing her quickly; for example, before the fight he had the opportunity to just shoot her down but explicitly mused that he wanted to confront her ceremoniously. Then when she falls he catches her just to tell her "I'd never let you fall" and decapitate her in a long motion. It wasn't like with Jacen when he just leaped at him to kill him.
Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Novel blurbs aren't canon. If so, provide evidence that explicitly says so.
We know that the novel is [legends] canon. It's up to you to take away a part of the novel as an exception. I mean this is like asking me for proof that page 239 of a book is canon too.
1. You can't properly measure just how powerful the rage amp was that Luke received. For all we know, he could have been tapping into a significant amount of his potential to come, in that one specific instance.
We can't know many things for sure, but we can think about what's reasonable, and it's not reasonable that he got to his LotF level. A direct implication of this is that Palpatine didn't seem worried that he was gonna die too. Likewise, even if he had, he presumably didn't magically gain his later technical skill and general mastery.
2. It's also worth noting, that Vader wasn't going 100% in his duel with Luke --- sources have indicated his resolved wavered and he was emotionally conflicted.
Sources themselves are conflicted on this, but it's doubtful that Vader wasn't going all-out when he was getting battered down and utterly destroyed.
3. Was it really months before? If so, Luke scar happened months before, than why did it take him so long to heal from it? Even so, He was still majoryly affected by it, given after the hit was delivered at that spit, his breating was vitiate significantly.
I mean, it was his first fight with Lumiya, so I'm assuming it was a decent time ago but I forgot exactly when.
Yeah, he hit the wound and it opened it - but that doesn't to me suggest that he was nerfed back to his RotJ level. The Force is the strongest predictor of your success in a duel - 40 years of growth is going to outdo some flesh wounds. And right before, Luke was piloting his ship and Jaina was amazed at how awesome he was, not thinking that he was injured. Luke pinned Jacen to his chair in the same novel - again, no indication that the most important element, his strength in the Force, was weakened.
Again, your arbitrary bullshit needs actual backing. Prove a heavily hindered Luke in a era where he has a penchant for jobbing is above a rage amp Luke that was holding zero back.
The null hypothesis is just as unsupported and holds no advantage here; you still haven't justified your claim that two flesh wounds count as him being "heavily hindered" when he's healed from near-death injuries within hours and is more powerful in the Force than Palpatine, and when just minutes before Jaina saw him flying his Stealth X and concluded that Luke had only ever showed her a fraction of his power he was so good, not that he was weakened, lmfao.