General Grievous vs Khan

Started by Dark-Kenshin3 pages

General Grievous vs Khan

I've been wanting to make a thread where Khan has a legit chance of competing against a SW character for a while, thus what better matchup than this one here?

Below is the scenario


The great general of Separatist army stood at the bridge of the invisible hand, watching the outside space warfare progress with the utmost interest. That was when he heard the door to the bridge flush open. He turned around to see who was entering the room. It was an individual who had been caught sneaking onto the ship. Two battle droids were escorting him into the room at gunpoint.

"Ah yes, if it isn't Khan Noonian. I was expecting someone with your reputation to appear a little more . . . intimidating."

"Release my crew now or you will find me to be far more than just intimidating, Grievous."

"Spare me your threats", the crazed cyborg asserted. "You are in no position to be making any demands. My droids have seized your prized boolean gun as well as your precious phaser rifle. Your technology will avail you nothing! You are helpless and greatly outnumbered."

"You think I am outnumbered?", the augmented human smirked deviously. Just then, all of the droids in the room deactivated themselves; they all powered down.

"What the---how did you do that?!?!", Grievous growled.

"Apparently, I am not as helpless as you believed. I only allowed myself to be captured, but only after hacking into all of the droids in the room and assuring myself that they would be useless. Now, shall we begin?"

The Separatist general quickly grabbed an electrostaff off of one of the deactivated magnaguards and Khan did the same.

Conditions:

-Weapons, previously in the droids' possession, are scattered all throughout the room. Blasters, blaster rifles, a few lightsabers and Khan's weapons. Either combatant can try and retrieve their weapon of choice at their peril, but in a fight such as this, stopping to retrieve a weapon could allow the other combatant the opening they need to finish the battle.

-Crashing the ship and/or leaving the bridge is not an option.

-No outside help is permitted.

-Movie incarnations only.

-This is Khan from Into the Darkness

Who wins?

Khan guns this bitchmade down.

Khan wrecks another Star Wars character. He leaves this thread in search of Palpatine to bring down this cowardly and despicable geriatric.

Have got no opinion on who wins, but I think I'll argue for Grievous anyway!

General Grievous is an accomplished swordsman. Even by the standards of ROTS, he had bested numerous Jedi in the past, as his lightsaber collection indicates. Jedi are individuals with super human abilities, both in perception and reflexes.

Khan has demonstrated to us nothing that would indicate he could keep up with weapons moving at the speed shown here: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=39

There, we see Grievous moving lightsabers much faster than we see Spock swinging his fist, which Khan illustrates a difficulty time in dodging: https://youtu.be/vhRzfg3zLbA?t=41

Thus, it stands to reason that were Grievous to perform a similar assault either with an electrostaff or a discarded lightsaber in the room, Khan would be vanquished without a moment's notice. Based on the conditions provided in the OP, this is precisely how the battle would go. Grievious would give Khan no time to find his personal weapons and would quickly eliminate him perhaps with greater ease than the legions of Jedi he has slain.

And that'll do it for now! 😄

What the heck? Grievous stomps. He's way too fast and agile for Khan.

Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.

Kenobi had range and surprise as his assets when that happened. Khan could theoretically attain both assets in this encounter, but it's highly unlikely. I submit that Grievous mows him down before he tries!

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Have got no opinion on who wins, but I think I'll argue for Grievous anyway!

General Grievous is an accomplished swordsman. Even by the standards of ROTS, he had bested numerous Jedi in the past, as his lightsaber collection indicates. Jedi are individuals with super human abilities, both in perception and reflexes.

Khan has demonstrated to us nothing that would indicate he could keep up with weapons moving at the speed shown here: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=39

There, we see Grievous moving lightsabers much faster than we see Spock swinging his fist, which Khan illustrates a difficulty time in dodging: https://youtu.be/vhRzfg3zLbA?t=41

Thus, it stands to reason that were Grievous to perform a similar assault either with an electrostaff or a discarded lightsaber in the room, Khan would be vanquished without a moment's notice. Based on the conditions provided in the OP, this is precisely how the battle would go. Grievious would give Khan no time to find his personal weapons and would quickly eliminate him perhaps with greater ease than the legions of Jedi he has slain.

And that'll do it for now! 😄

So what ? Kenobi was fast enough to strike Grievous as well and even see the weakness behind chest plate.

Once Khan grabs a blaster or his weapons this is done and over. We see how slowly Grievous closed in on Kenobi just hanging on a ledge. Wasn't fast at all. Quit ignoring the evidence you troll.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.

Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.

👆

Originally posted by quanchi112
So what ? Kenobi was fast enough to strike Grievous
Kenobi, like all Jedi, has some form of precognition. This is how he is also capable of deflecting blaster fire, how Luke is capable of deflecting blaster fire blind folded and how Luke is able to fire the photo torpedos into the correct exhaust port on the Death Star without using his targeting computer. So of course Kenobi can react to that speed despite being incapable of moving at such speeds himself. The force guides him.

We look back to Khan. Khan is utterly unable to avoid Spock's punches, which are demonstrably slower. Khan has no form of precognition, so the argument in regards to speed remains unscathed.

While we're at it, I'll add an argument on the basis of skill. Observe this part of the Spock vs Khan battle. https://youtu.be/rWUDKY7E8ok?t=55 . At the 56 second mark, Khan throws a highly telegraphed hay-maker. One Spock effortlessly avoids. Telegraphed haymakers of this level are the kind even beginner boxers know better than to use in a fight and yet Khan doesn't hesitate to throw one. Perhaps 23rd century martial arts are viable in the 23rd century, but against any semi-competent combatant, much less General Grievous, Khan's fighting skills would prove untenable.

as well and even see the weakness behind chest plate.
This is true. Unfortunately, Kenobi was able last long enough against Grievous to make use of this weakness. The same will not be said for Khan.

Once Khan grabs a blaster or his weapons this is done and over. We see how slowly Grievous closed in on Kenobi just hanging on a ledge.
Khan will never get the opportunity to grab a blaster or his weapons. I provided scenes from both films to observe. Grievous can move his weapons far faster than Spock can throw punches. Punches Khan eats quite a few of.

Quit ignoring the evidence you troll.
Nah, we can do without personal attacks. Let me see some counter-arguments.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Kenobi, like all Jedi, has some form of precognition. This is how he is also capable of deflecting blaster fire, how Luke is capable of deflecting blaster fire blind folded and how Luke is able to fire the photo torpedos into the correct exhaust port on the Death Star without using his targetting computer. So of course Kenobi can react to that speed despite being incapable of moving at such speeds himself.

We look back to Khan. Khan is utterly unable to avoid Spock's punches, which are demonstrably slower. Khan has no form of precognition, so the argument in regards to speed remains unscathed.

While we're at it, I'll add an argument on the basis skill. Observe this part of the Spock vs Khan battle. https://youtu.be/rWUDKY7E8ok?t=55 . At the 56 second mark, Khan throws a highly telegraphed hay-maker. One Spock effortlessly avoids. Telegraphed haymakers of this level are the kind even beginner boxers know better than to use in a fight and yet Khan doesn't hesitate to throw one. Perhaps 23rd century martial arts are viable in the 23rd century, but against any semi-competent combatant, much less General Grievous, Khan's fighting skills would prove untenable.

This is true. Unfortunately, Kenobi was able last long enough against Grievous to make use of this weakness. The same cannot be said for Khan.

Khan will never get the opportunity to grab a blast or his weapons. I provided scenes from both films to observe. Grievous can move his weapons far faster than Spock can throw punches. Punches Khan eats quite a few of.

Nah, we can do without personal attacks. Let me see some counter-arguments.

So what ? We see how slowly Grievous reacted in movement and we know Kenobi is a superior swordsman so that's why he quickly retreated from the light saber duel after he lost two hands.

Ok let's look at precognition and how Kenobi fares in close proximity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMZdrUx8eM

Despite precognition he can't seem to get his saber back or avoid that head butt. He didn't even beat Jango. Jango doesn't have super speed or precognition but he did better than Grievous. See you're a disingenuous Star Wars debater trying to compare apples to oranges.

You're ignoring that Khan just crash landed on earth, sprinted through the city, and still came out on top against Spock. He resisted two nerve pinches and was about to crush his skull in their one on one confrontation. Kenobi struggled with a guy weighed down by body armor and looked sloppy as hell and despite having jedis powers was unable to hold an advantage over Jango Fett.

I have exposed your double standards and noted how slow Grievous was in closing the distance to a Kenobi who simply was holding on for dear life and unable to move himself.

😂

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Have got no opinion on who wins, but I think I'll argue for Grievous anyway!

And that'll do it for now! 😄

You just admitted basically made a thread, then said you have no opinion on who wins and then say grievous wins.

And you expect anyone here to take you serious?

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You just admitted basically made a thread, then said you have no opinion on who wins and then say grievous wins.

And you expect anyone here to take you serious?

Star Wars debater sock who won't take me on directly under the primary account but instead sought me out via sock.

Good rebuttal! Now for my riposte!

Originally posted by quanchi112
So what ? We see how slowly Grievous reacted in movement and we know Kenobi is a superior swordsman so that's why he quickly retreated from the light saber duel after he lost two hands.
You're also leaving out Kenobi's TK. As the confident Grievous was getting the upper hand in the sword duel, Kenobi force pushed him. It was only then that he fled https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=113

I'm not certain what you mean by Grievous slowly reacting in movement. Feel free to clarify, but the way he spun those sabers at the beginning was quiet fast. It looked as if Grievous had lightsaber ceiling fans in his possession. How exactly does Khan counter such movement and do you have anything in the "Into the Darkness" film that would indicate he can?

Ok let's look at precognition and how Kenobi fares in close proximity.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8tMZdrUx8eM

Despite precognition he can't seem to get his saber back or avoid that head butt. He didn't even beat Jango. Jango doesn't have super speed or precognition but he did better than Grievous.

This is a good argument to use against who try to make SW characters out to be far more powerful than they were ever intended to be. Still, it will do you no good here since I'm not suggesting Kenobi or any of these characters is omniscient or omnipotent. That's all your video goes to disprove.

The precognition these Jedi have certainly isn't perfect. How else would a non-force wielder like Grievous ever kill so many Jedi otherwise? How else would Jango Fett have been able to headbutt Kenobi? That being said, look at the other feats Kenobi performed in the video you've provided. Kenobi avoids getting blown up by a nigh-point blank rocket, avoids getting killed by blaster fire from Jango Fett's ship, jump kicks a moving Jango Fett out of the sky.

You bring up the headbutt for a reason. That's all Jango cleanly lands. Everything else gets blocked or avoided. Thus, if we were to give a Jedi's precognition a numerical rating as far as reliability is concerned, I would concede that that number isn't 10/10, but you'd have to also agree that it isn't 0/10 either. Using your video as a guide, 9/10 seems appropriate.

To say he did better than Grievous is demonstrably false. Jango got in one clean blow. Grievous got in 6. Moreover, Jango had a more reliable means of escape than Grievous did.

See you're a disingenuous Star Wars debater trying to compare apples to oranges.
Nah, I'm not really a Star Wars debater. Just a debater. 🙂
You're ignoring that Khan just crash landed on earth, sprinted through the city, and still came out on top against Spock. He resisted two nerve pinches and was about to crush his skull in their one on one confrontation. Kenobi struggled with a guy weighed down by body armor and looked sloppy as hell and despite having jedis powers was unable to hold an advantage over Jango Fett.
Khan did just crash land on earth, but if we take other scenes into account, such as his attack on the vengeance, his movement speed isn't notably different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuK_LBXE9_o . Thus, it stands to reason that the film makers and/or screenplayer writers did not intend to suggest that he was significantly impaired during his bout with Spock. If anything, his accelerated healing probably brought him back to at least near-100%.

That and there's still his questionable combat skills. Why throw telegraphed haymakers like the one I pointed out? In that particular part of the fight, there were far more efficient options Khan could have taken. A simple sleeper hold would have perhaps won him the battle then and there. Instead, he winds up his fist in an obvious fashion, giving Spock more than enough time to recover, dodge and eventually land a vulcan nerve pinch. 23rd century standards of engagement? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it tenable against combatants in other mediums, much less against someone as fast as General Grievous. A telegraphed haymaker will be the end of his life in this scenario.

I have exposed your double standards and noted how slow Grievous was in closing the distance to a Kenobi who simply was holding on for dear life and unable to move himself.
And I have agreed that should Khan be able to make the fight progress this far, he will have the same opportunity Kenobi had. However, as it stands, Khan will be cut down during the opening stage of the battle as he has no counter to Grievous' devastating speed.

Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
You just admitted basically made a thread, then said you have no opinion on who wins and then say grievous wins.
I did competitive debate all through high school and parts of college. You'll forgive me if I have the means and desire to debate subjects I have no opinion on. 😉
And you expect anyone here to take you serious?
Quite the contrary. I would be most remorseful if you took a subject like 'which fictional character would win a fight' too seriously. 😛

But that's all personal nonsense. If you'd like to contribute, do so by all means. If not, feel free to quietly observe.

Khan wins, its really that simple.

Booleg gun > blaster.

It is your forum, but when you think about it, it's my Internet. So I'm kind of gonna have to ask you to bow your head in reverence when glancing upon any of my posts and pray that I might bestow you with a plentiful harvest. 😊

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
It is your forum, but when you think about it, it's my Internet. So I'm kind of gonna have to bow my head in reverence when glancing upon any of your posts and pray that I might bestow you with a plentiful harvest. 😊

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
Good rebuttal! Now for my riposte!
You're also leaving out Kenobi's TK. As the confident Grievous was getting the upper hand in the sword duel, Kenobi force pushed him. It was only then that he fled https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=113

I'm not certain what you mean by Grievous slowly reacting in movement. Feel free to clarify, but the way he spun those sabers at the beginning was quiet fast. It looked as if Grievous had lightsaber ceiling fans in his possession. How exactly does Khan counter such movement and do you have anything in the "Into the Darkness" film that would indicate he can?

This is a good argument to use against who try to make SW characters out to be far more powerful than they were ever intended to be. Still, it will do you no good here since I'm not suggesting Kenobi or any of these characters is omniscient or omnipotent. That's all your video goes to disprove.

The precognition these Jedi have certainly isn't perfect. How else would a non-force wielder like Grievous ever kill so many Jedi otherwise? How else would Jango Fett have been able to headbutt Kenobi? That being said, look at the other feats Kenobi performed in the video you've provided. Kenobi avoids getting blown up by a nigh-point blank rocket, avoids getting killed by blaster fire from Jango Fett's ship, jump kicks a moving Jango Fett out of the sky.

You bring up the headbutt for a reason. That's all Jango cleanly lands. Everything else gets blocked or avoided. Thus, if we were to give a Jedi's precognition a numerical rating as far as reliability is concerned, I would concede that that number isn't 10/10, but you'd have to also agree that it isn't 0/10 either. Using your video as a guide, 9/10 seems appropriate.

To say he did better than Grievous is demonstrably false. Jango got in one clean blow. Grievous got in 6. Moreover, Jango had a more reliable means of escape than Grievous did.

Nah, I'm not really a Star Wars debater. Just a debater. 🙂Khan did just crash land on earth, but if we take other scenes into account, such as his attack on the vengeance, his movement speed isn't notably different. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuK_LBXE9_o . Thus, it stands to reason that the film makers and/or screenplayer writers did not intend to suggest that he was significantly impaired during his bout with Spock. If anything, his accelerated healing probably brought him back to at least near-100%.

That and there's still his questionable combat skills. Why throw telegraphed haymakers like the one I pointed out? In that particular part of the fight, there were far more efficient options Khan could have taken. A simple sleeper hold would have perhaps won him the battle then and there. Instead, he winds up his fist in an obvious fashion, giving Spock more than enough time to recover, dodge and eventually land a vulcan nerve pinch. 23rd century standards of engagement? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it tenable against combatants in other mediums, much less against someone as fast as General Grievous. A telegraphed haymaker will be the end of his life in this scenario.

And I have agreed that should Khan be able to make the fight progress this far, he will have the same opportunity Kenobi had. However, as it stands, Khan will be cut down during the opening stage of the battle as he has no counter to Grievous' devastating speed.

Kenobi only brought Tk into play after the clones showed up and Grievous held no advantage. Conversely despite a four to one light saber advantage he lost two hands and didn't land one critical hit.

If you time the sequence beginning when he starts his hand spinning to closing the distance to Kenobi it's well over five seconds which isn't fast at all. In fact it's precisely the opposite. When Grievous makes his cowardly exit he runs up to a mobile circular Star Wars vehicle to get him out of the hot water he had gotten himself into. He didn't do it under his own mobility.

Khan would gun him down before he closes the distance as supported by the plus five seconds at the very least it takes for him to close the distance with the hand twirl. That's supported by Khan's feats and by the real time it took Grievous to pull his own feat off. You see you change change the evidence nor do your exaggerations work.

We later see Kenobi and his lackluster strength disarm Grievous while he's riding his vehicle with the double edged staff. We later ironically see Grievous in hand to hand combat miss two haymakers against Kenobi. Irony for the win!!

Precognition is something you can't prove and in a one on one fight the guy with the ability fails to beat the human without it. Irony again for the win.

Jedi rely on their skill so Grievous obviously kills weaker Jedi than Kenobi. How is this hard to grasp ? Someone with Kenobi level powers and reactions was able to kill Grievous yet he was unable to bring Jango Fett in.

The rocket wasn't aimed directly onto Kenobi just his vicinity as we see him not move out of the way or take any measures to protect himself. He just gets blown back by the force of the exlposion. We also see Boba can't even see above the window and just fires again near Kenobi. Kenobi just gets flung backwards again. You see I am accurate in the details but you exaggerate as all fanboys do.

Jango also catches Kenobi's kick and flips him backward. They both clearly were in a fight amongst peers and Jango was able to perceive and react to Kenobi's attacks in a manner which put in an advantage which allowed him to escape. Kenobi tried reacquiring the light saber but Jango was too quick with his skills as a bounty hunter to prevent that from occurring.

The fight ended in a stalemate. 😂 Kenobi's attacks made no lasting damage and were of no significance. So based off this its s fifty fifty fight against a highly skilled opponent of Jango's level. Unlucky for Kenobi Khan is stronger, has better feats, has better skill, and more powerful weaponry.

Grievous died. He lost two hands also very quickly. Jango wasn't ever defeated nor did he lose any body parts.

Why did the cut remain then ? He didn't just crash land he sprinted throughout the city but in Star Wars we see count Dooku tire in a fight that lasted less than three minutes. 😂

Khan still prevailed. Grievous missed two punches as well and lost the fight. So ironic you rant and rave about two missed punches when Grievous himself missed two punches in close proximity.

Why ? Kenobi hurt himself by kicking Grievous and wasn't defeated. Kenobi was sloppy as hell and even injured himself by foolishly kicking the armor yet was able to avoid any fatal strokes from Grievous. He also took direct hits and wasn't critically injured at all.

Closing speed my ass. We see two examples of the fight against Kenobi that he closed very, very, very slowly. Evidence>>>your bias.

Kirk said it best... KHANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN