Originally posted by Time-Immemorial
Not really, he got owned by a regular blaster.Khans Ship wrecking gun owns him.
After Kenobi pulled his chest open to expose his heart. Khan also got owned by a regular phaser.
Khan isn't holding his wrecking gun according to the OP. But it's in the arena. So it's gonna come down to whose faster.
Originally posted by quanchi112The clones did not contribute to the fight though and Grievous was pushing Kenobi back. If anything, Grievous forced him to use TK, despite having lost two of his limbs and despite facing an opponent with some form of precognition, which as we've learned from your example with Jango Fett, is a very effective advantage for a Jedi to have. Grievous did well despite this.
[B]Kenobi only brought Tk into play after the clones showed up and Grievous held no advantage. Conversely despite a four to one light saber advantage he lost two hands and didn't land one critical hit.
If you time the sequence beginning when he starts his hand spinning to closing the distance to Kenobi it's well over five seconds which isn't fast at all. In fact it's precisely the opposite. When Grievous makes his cowardly exit he runs up to a mobile circular Star Wars vehicle to get him out of the hot water he had gotten himself into. He didn't do it under his own mobility.You are using a strawman argument though. My argument was that the speed at which Grievous swung his sabers was faster, not the speed at which he menacingly approached Kenobi while swinging said sabers. Am I to assume that you agree that Khan doesn't have the means to contend with Grievous directly in any fashion similar to the way Kenobi did?
You're correct that Grievous did cowardly exit on his mobile circular vehicle (have no idea what it's called), but this is a point made devoid of context. First, he had just been hit by an attack that sent him flying to the other side of the room. He had no means of dealing with such an attack again, thus getting out of the room as soon as possible was the only logical course of action. The mobile vehicle would certainly be faster than any effort to leave on foot. Second, there was an entire room of clone troopers ready to assist Kenobi. All the more reason to escape in the fashion. Either way, I don't see how his method of escape detracts from his overall mobility, especially when locked in combat with someone such as Khan. Someone who lacks both of the aforementioned advantages Kenobi possessed.
Khan would gun him down before he closes the distance as supported by the plus five seconds at the very least it takes for him to close the distance with the hand twirl. That's supported by Khan's feats and by the real time it took Grievous to pull his own feat off. You see you change change the evidence nor do your exaggerations work.As Khan would say, let us play this out logically. Make sure to reread the conditions I described in the scenario in the OP as they are crucial here. If we're go by your argument, you're saying Khan drops his electro staff, looks around the bridge (which is a spacious room, mind you), then goes to pick up a gun so that he may gun Grievous down with. That's at least three different courses of action to take. Meanwhile, Grievous stands across Khan ready to kill and with one move no less. We've already seen that he can move much faster than Spock. How, pray tell, does Khan avoid getting tagged in order to pull of the strategy you're referring to?
We later see Kenobi and his lackluster strength disarm Grievous while he's riding his vehicle with the double edged staff. We later ironically see Grievous in hand to hand combat miss two haymakers against Kenobi. Irony for the win!!Kenobi was mounted to a giant lizard iguana. Certainly sturdier than some weird metal spinny thing. Grievous throws two haymakers, but both of them land: The first one: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=203 . The second: https://youtu.be/tXTFdDrd7pA?t=215
Precognition is something you can't prove and in a one on one fight the guy with the ability fails to beat the human without it. Irony again for the win.Precognition has been explained since the very first film in the series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY
https://youtu.be/DOFgFAcGHQc?t=120
We have no more reason to disregard it than we do the mechanics of teleportation in Star Trek. Are we to assume that Spock wasn't beamed down near Khan at light speed because no one said he was?
Jedi rely on their skill so Grievous obviously kills weaker Jedi than Kenobi. How is this hard to grasp ? Someone with Kenobi level powers and reactions was able to kill Grievous yet he was unable to bring Jango Fett in.Jedi rely on their skill, but the force guides them to some extent. Precognition. If you are proposing Obi wan wasn't being guided by the force during his encounter with Jango Fett or Grievous, I welcome the proposition provided you can demonstrate that it is the case.
The rocket wasn't aimed directly onto Kenobi just his vicinity as we see him not move out of the way or take any measures to protect himself. He just gets blown back by the force of the exlposion. We also see Boba can't even see above the window and just fires again near Kenobi. Kenobi just gets flung backwards again. You see I am accurate in the details but you exaggerate as all fanboys do.Are we watching the same fight here?
First blast: https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=33
We can clearly see Obi-wan within the blast radius, but he comes out unscathed. No burns on his clothes or anything! All no sign of injury from the concussive force.
Second blast: https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=41
Again, point blank within the blast radius. No signs of burns, no signs of injury, no signs of effect from the concussive force.
What in-universe explanation do you have for this? 😉
Jango also catches Kenobi's kick and flips him backward. They both clearly were in a fight amongst peers and Jango was able to perceive and react to Kenobi's attacks in a manner which put in an advantage which allowed him to escape. Kenobi tried reacquiring the light saber but Jango was too quick with his skills as a bounty hunter to prevent that from occurring.No one is denying that Jango had skill. The issue here is Obi-wan's precognition. You have attempted to downplay or perhaps argue that it is non-existant based on their fight. I've dismantled this argument simply by pointing out that Obi-wan's precognition is imperfect, but still present nonetheless.
You talk about the kick Jango catches and flips back (crappy fight choreography just like telegraphed punches Spock vs Khan for the record, but we're sticking to in-universe explanations here 😂 ), but I'm not seeing what you're referring to. https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=53 . Jango catches the kick, but we clearly see Obiwan kicking himself out of it and staggering Jango in the process, cancel and then chain combo into another ground kick. Pause at 53.5.
The fight ended in a stalemate. 😂 Kenobi's attacks made no lasting damage and were of no significance. So based off this its s fifty fifty fight against a highly skilled opponent of Jango's level. Unlucky for Kenobi Khan is stronger, has better feats, has better skill, and more powerful weaponry.Again, we must be watching different versions of the fight here. Jango flees, gets in his ship and flies away: https://youtu.be/8tMZdrUx8eM?t=162 . Obi-wan is left standing around clamoring for more. He subsequently throws a tracking device on Jango's ship.
Grievous died. He lost two hands also very quickly. Jango wasn't ever defeated nor did he lose any body parts.I don't mind the bravado, quan, but c'mon man! If you're gonna accuse me of disregarding details, you should at least be a little more consistent. Jango fled the fight. We see it clearly. How is that not a loss?
Why did the cut remain then ? He didn't just crash land he sprinted throughout the city but in Star Wars we see count Dooku tire in a fight that lasted less than three minutes. 😂The cut remained because he hadn't fully healed. Even still, that doesn't alter the fact that there's no noticeable difference between his movements and agility on the vengeance versus his movements and agility versus Spock and that's all we're concerned with here. If the screenplayer writer wanted to demonstrate that Khan was notably weakened, it would've been easy to do so (i.e. Kylo Ren punching the area he was injured at by Chewie in TFA).
Khan still prevailed. Grievous missed two punches as well and lost the fight. So ironic you rant and rave about two missed punches when Grievous himself missed two punches in close proximity.I addressed the haymakers Grievious threw. He landed them just fine. He did miss several punches, but I think you missed the point. My criticism in regards to Khan wasn't that he missed punches, but that he missed punches he had no business throwing in the first place. As we see during the fight, Spock punished him for this the way even a novice boxer would. A more skilled combatant wouldn't have wasted the opportunity Khan did. There's no need to wind up your fist like that when a normal straight right would've sufficed.
Why ? Kenobi hurt himself by kicking Grievous and wasn't defeated. Kenobi was sloppy as hell and even injured himself by foolishly kicking the armor yet was able to avoid any fatal strokes from Grievous. He also took direct hits and wasn't critically injured at all.I agree 100% on Kenobi's foolish kicking and him taking direct hits without being critically injured, but don't really see how that advances your argument, especially considering the trap you just laid for yourself in inadvertently suggesting that Obi wan tanked the concussive force of the blasts he got caught in during his battle with Jango. But we'll get to that in the next post! 🙂
Precognition doesn't matter nor did it matter in the Jango fight since he couldn't sense being disarmed, his kick caught and reversed, nor could he see that head butt coming prior to impact. Kenobi's primary weapon is a laser sword Khan's isn't so this is very irrelevant to a fight between the two. Make relevant points, sport. You also can't prove exactly where and when he used precognition. It's just a vague ability fanboys reach for in a debate.
Well he can swing his light sabers quickly but he can't close quickly. Khan can run or move faster than how quickly he approaches and closes the distance. This isn't a battle of quick hand movement. Khan will seek to gain the tactical advantage which means arming with his own weaponry and shooting him as quickly as possible. He isn't Kenobi nor does he ever use light sabers so quit using irrelevant examples of the two engaging each other with laser swords.
We see when they are in the same room later Kenobi doesn't use this attack. It's about overwhelming your opponent and making them react according to the fight you can dictate the tempo. Jango dictated the tempo while Grievous did not. There was also an entire room of droids and no one was engaging Grievous yet. Grievous didn't like his chances and fled like a dog. He was unsuccessful in escaping.
Kenobi didn't use his force powers when in close proximity later in the fight. He could have tk force pushed him. He didn't. Instead he moronically killed the cyborg and hurt himself. Yes, unlike Kenobi the idiot Khan would destroy him in a much more efficient and quick manner.
Why would Khan seek to engage him physically if he didn't have to. Khan can use weapons in combat in close proximity as evidenced by his use of blades in the Klingon scene but why engage a cyborg in hand to hand unless you're forced to. It was very much the same with Kenobi. Kenobi managed to survive and he doesn't have the cellular regeneration nor does he have the strength of Khan. Based off what does Grievous kill Khan in one move ? He didn't display the speed or skill in a hand to hand fight that Spock did. We see he was unable to best Kenobi who doesn't possess hand to hand skill comparable to Khan. The same way Kenobi dodged his attacks he moves. What punches did Grievous dodge ?
He also missed two punches. He might have landed punches but so did Khan against Spock. 🙄
Your double standards are nauseating. The only thing your want to say is he can land haymakers and not significantly hurt a fleshy human being. Pa---------thetic.
You need to prove when the precognition was used not that it exists. Time stamp when the precognition was used and back it with definitive proof otherwise it's speculating.
🙂
You didn't understand me properly but the difference is I can prove when someone is transported down you can't prove when precognition was used. Catching on ?
You can't prove any of this speculative nonsense about the force guiding anything. We see Kenobi survives against Jango but another Jedi gunned down due to less skill. Skill varies as none of the Jedi embody the force. Yoda the most powerful Jedi ironically was hit by a force lightning attack after the guy warned him of said attack prior to. Yeah, I can cite examples of even more powerful Jedi struck by obvious attacks which took multiple seconds.
Kylo even states the quicker they apprehend Rey the better since the more time to hone the force the greater the skill becomes. It's like anything else the more you practice the better you are. How is common sense so hard to grasp ? Like anything any human being can practice since the dawn of time we see professionals, amateurs, etc. separating the varying degrees of skill. Same with the Jedi you biased little fanboy.
The blast doesn't hit him directly. Do you believe it did and he became invulnerable ? The Jedi can't take blaster bolts they inflict damage when they strike flesh. The same goes with this missile save it didn't hit him. When did any fire hit him ? It didn't so why burn when fire doesn't touch your clothes.
Same thing. It didn't hit him directly. When did any fire touch his clothing ? Yes, the concussive force drove him back. That's all.
If it's imperfect which I agree than what's your point. You can't even prove when precognition is used. Not one single example. I can give examples of when someone is fighting similarly to Spock and striking and holding their own against someone with this ability. it looks like the precognition couldn't give Kenobi enough of an advantage to win against Jango so why does it even matter in this thread. Grievous doesn't even have precognition.
😂
No, we see him catching and flipping Kenobi back. Quit lying about what we do see. So I have proven not only can a guy with precognition be stalemated by someone with skill but that it isn't relevant to Grievous since he can't connect to the force. 🙂
Jango was always trying to leave. Kenobi was always trying to bring him in so he failed in his objective. That is called a stalemate. The ironic thing is Grievous failed at escaping so it's directly comparable. Jango proved himself superior to Grievous in direct comparison against Kenobi.
Grievous tried to flee. He failed. Jango didn't lose any body parts and did what grievous failed to do. Grievous initially wanted to fight whereas Jango only did so because he felt he had to in that situation.
So if he hadn't fully healed he did suffer damage from the crash. I could post a video in which in the canon clone wars series Kenobi passes out after crashing trying to get to Maul showing he just doesn't compare to Khan. Kylo's movements weren't affected either if you wa t to look at it that way. He was still injured as evidenced by the blood. The way he swung his Lightsaber he didn't look slow or fatigued at all. You're dishonest at every turn. Kylo bled but based off your own logic his movements didn't change or lessen at all.
So according to you Grievous' haymakers don't even damage Kenobi that much at all. 👆
He also missed two punches. Khan missed two punches. Khan won the fight whereas Grievous died. Says you. Your opinion doesn't change the facts. The one on one fight ended with him about to crush his skull before backup arrived and had Spock in a position he was unable to free himself from. Spock didn't best him. Grievous landed two haymakers according to you and he didn't ko Kenobi. He also missed punches. He also had to close the distance to kill him but was unable to do so before Kenobi used the force to retrieve a weapon and easily kill him at that point. Results matter not your skewed and nauseating double standards.
The blast never directly touched him. The force pushed him back. If someone is around when Hulk and Iron Man's fists clash and the concussive force breaks the glass that doesn't mean the glass withstood anywhere near the force their fists did in direct impact. You're an idiot.
Precognition doesn't matter nor did it matter in the Jango fight . . .But as I've pointed out, precognition isn't 100% reliable. It is nonetheless present, per the excerpts I presented from A New Hope and certainly goes to explain some of Obi-Wan superhuman feats both during his battle with Jango and General Grievious. Saying I can't prove exactly where and when he used precognition is weak; it's no different than saying one can't prove where and when starships are beaming people back up to their ships at lightspeed, since we aren't told they're moving at lightspeed each and every time. Both concepts have been established and explained from the geto.
Let us remember the whole purpose of the precognition discussion. You were attempting to downplay Grievous' speed by pointing out that Obi-wan countered Grievous' speedy saber swings. I pointed out that Obi-wan, having precognition, has a means of dealing with things faster than him. You cited Obi-Wan's jango fett fight, pointing out the headbutt Obi-wan received from the non-force-wielding Mandalorian. All this tells us is that precognition is not perfect (something we've known since the first film), not that it doesn't exist.
As such, the point stands, Khan is unable to replicate Kenobi's feat and gets sliced and diced by Grievous as a result.
You say:
Well he can swing his light sabers quickly but he can't close quickly. Khan can run or move faster than how quickly he approaches and closes the distance.These are all bare-assertions, however. They aren't grounded in any evidence of Khan's movement speed.
Fortunately, if we are to go by your standards and say Grievous is restricted to walking menacingly towards Khan, (which I'm happy to do) we have ample evidence in regards to what Khan will do. Feist your eyes on the actual fight.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWUDKY7E8ok
At 2:05, Spock is hanging off the hover-car. Khan, having already landed on the car, stands around pointlessly, giving Spock precisely 11 seconds to get back up so that he may continue the fight. Lots of people would dismiss this as CIS, but I'd prefer we go by your standards, Khan. This is exactly how Khan is likely to behave during battle. Stand around pointlessly while Grievous advances. Moreover, at 1:48, rather than finish Spock off while he is down, Khan pointlessly stares at him for a couple of seconds then jumps off to another vehicle! Sheer incompetence! A more competent opponent would've taken the opportunity to throat-stomp Spock!
Thus, here is how the battle is to be proceed pursuant to your standards. Grievous does indeed walk menacingly towards Khan like he did with Obi-wan, but Khan just stands around pointlessly for at least 11 seconds, giving Grievous the chance to slice and dice him!
Khan will seek to gain the tactical advantage which means arming with his own weaponry and shooting him as quickly as possible.Khan's efforts to arm himself with his own weaponry goes right back to what I said in the previous reply. Your method for Khan winning consist of at least three moves: Drop his electrostaff, look around the room to find the weapon he wants, going and grabbing the weapon he wants. While he is attempting to pull off these three moves, his very fast opponent has the means to end the battle in one move.
Yes, unlike Kenobi the idiot Khan would destroy him in a much more efficient and quick manner.And that's the thing about your arguments. You talk up a great game about Khan, but always tell rather than show show. I just cited two major examples of incompetence from Khan that greatly outweigh any problems Kenobi has shown. Standing around pointlessly for 11 seconds is BEYOND incompetent.
Why would Khan seek to engage him physically if he didn't have to.Khan can use weapons in combat in close proximity as evidenced by his use of blades in the Klingon scene but why engage a cyborg in hand to hand unless you're forced to.He would certainly be forced to, given the Cyborg's speed advantage and the fact that you're insisting he try to end the battle in 3 moves vs Grievous' 1. Yes, Khan is familiar with weapons, but his speed (and skill to a lesser extent) are the problem. Grievous can move his lightsabers so fast that they look like ceiling fans. Khan easily gets tagged by much slower punches from Spock.
He didn't display the speed or skill in a hand to hand fight that Spock did. We see he was unable to best Kenobi who doesn't possess hand to hand skill comparable to Khan. The same way Kenobi dodged his attacks he moves. What punches did Grievous dodge ?The more we analyze Khan's fight with Spock, the more reason we have to question any notions of Khan's speed and skill. Telegraphed punches, standing around pointlessly, not seizing opportunities to win, etc. Why should Grievous have trouble with any of this?
Unable to best Kenobi? Kenobi was getting thrown around like a ragdoll. There's a reason he force pulled the blaster at the end. It wasn't because he was winning the fist fight.
He also missed two punches. He might have landed punches but so did Khan against Spock. 🙄Nah, this sounds like obfuscation. The point is pretty clear. Reliance on overly telegraphed haymakers is indicative of a lack of fighting skill. In Grievous' case, he at least used them when they were sure to land. Khan, however, wasted a valuable opportunity to win.
You didn't understand me properly but the difference is I can prove when someone is transported down . . .No no, prove Spock was moving at lightspeed when he was transported down in pursuit of Khan. Prove Uhura was moving at lightspeed when she was transported down in pursuit of Khan. I don't want any explanation on how teleportation in the Trek universe works just as you don't want any explanation on how Jedi use the force. I want it to be proved by statements at the exact specific time they happen or it didn't happen. . See? Weak sauce.
The blast doesn't hit him directly.I dunno man. I mean, I did post the video and we do see him in the blast, so there's no disputing that he was in the blast, We do see the explosions go off right next to him, so there's no disputing that either. Maybe has something to do with that force thing we keep talking about.
No, we see him catching and flipping Kenobi back. Quit lying about what we do see.Nope, look at the timestamp I showed you. Hell, look at the posture of Jango's hands. They're spread out. If he was flipping him, he wouldn't have let go. 😂
Jango was always trying to leave. Kenobi was always trying to bring him in so he failed in his objective. That is called a stalemate. The ironic thing is Grievous failed at escaping so it's directly comparable. Jango proved himself superior to Grievous in direct comparison against Kenobi.Semanticaga's casting time is ridiculously long, quan. 😛
It is a fact that Jango tried to defeat Obi-wan. He did so employing fisticuffs, gadgets and explosives. Defeating Obi-wan was one of the means he used to try and escape. And there, he lost. There's no disputing that. Grievous lost too, but Grievous performed substantially better, landing six clean blows contrary to Jango's one. Can't argue against math.
So if he hadn't fully healed he did suffer damage from the crash. I could post a video in which in the canon clone wars series Kenobi passes out after crashing trying to get to Maul showing he just doesn't compare to Khan. Kylo's movements weren't affected either if you wa t to look at it that way. He was still injured as evidenced by the blood. The way he swung his Lightsaber he didn't look slow or fatigued at all. You're dishonest at every turn. Kylo bled but based off your own logic his movements didn't change or lessen at all.I've restricted myself to films and would kindly ask that you do the same; none of that Clone Wars stuff (better feats for Grievous there anyway).
Kylo's movements were affected. We see this mid-battle as he engaged the non force sensitive Finn. Rather than take the time to finish him off when he is knocked down, he turns around to hit his wounds. The same cannot be said for Khan. The only time he stops to reel in pain is in response to pain Spock or Uhura has caused him. Khan is every bit as strong and fast as he was when he beat up Kirk on the Vengeance. A good showing for Khan mind you, but not good enough against someone like Grievous.
So according to you Grievous' haymakers don't even damage Kenobi that much at all. 👆In that same video, we see Grievous punch a sizable dent into his starship, so any notions that Grievous is weak is laughable. This isn't the first time we see Kenobi somehow withstanding large amounts of damage. That Jango fight you pointed us too is a great example. Perhaps it has something to do with that vague force thing you keep downplaying. 😕
The blast never directly touched him. The force pushed him back. If someone is around when Hulk and Iron Man's fists clash and the concussive force breaks the glass that doesn't mean the glass withstood anywhere near the force their fists did in direct impact. You're an idiot.Build a strawman, burn it down, then call me names. I'm not impressed. 😂
I see the blast all around Obi-wan and have posted both shots. Not much else to say. I don't really do "the sky is not blue" arguments. Sorry.
Originally posted by KazenjiSupprting Khan the winner with an argument based off showings, etc. You did your predictable worthless comment like some little *****. All you do is copy and paste links from screen rant you don't offer shit to this site you pile of shit.
How predictable from Quan..... 🙄
And as I've said before Grievous doesn't have precognition nor can you prove when it's been used. Your point has been destroyed and isn't relevant for this fight so kindly take your shitty fanboyism elsewhere. I can prove when the ships trans beam warp. That's neither here nor there. Your whole initial point was on Kenobi but in a brawl he gets tagged and doesn't even win against a skilled opponent with precognition.
That's neither here nor there since that's relevant to a sword fight in which Kenobi is more skilled. Grievous has more hands and can spin them fast but he can't even best Kenobi with four sabers as compared to one. His skill is that awful. So in a hand tai hand fight precognition doesn't make the guy with it way better than the guy without it which is my point. Concession accepted. Factually backed. On screen evidence>>>your fanboyism.
No, since the feat or the actual slice and dice takes well over five seconds and Khan won't engage him with a light saber. Your scripting is nauseating and isn't supported by logic or anything in the films.
We see Khan move far faster in combat than the time it takes Grievous to close on Kenobi. I can show Khan closing far faster with a gun than Grievous does with his sabers.
Irrelevant to this fight since Khan had no weapons and the aircraft was moving. This situation isn't the same nor is Khan without multiple weapons in the immediate vicinity. None of your logic holds any water since Spock wasn't wielding any light sabers and we see how quickly he disarms Spock. At the start of the fight since if you recall he was chasing Khan with his phaser. Quit with your speculative nonsense. Khan realized he wasn't just against Spock but the entire coordinated efforts of the Enterprise and that he needed to get free and regroup. There was nothing in it to kill Spock unless he had to since he just wanted to be free and escape and further plot.
False, as Khan isn't armed and will put himself in the best position to kill Grievous. Aboard the avengeance he knows when his enemies can't use weapons and takes full advantage. Khan is tactical not some fool who'd stand there while a cyborg approaches him with four spinning lightsabers. Make a logical argument based off the evidence and the circumstances here.
He doesn't need to drop his staff until he closes on a gun. Why would he toss his weapon until he arrived at a better option ? Quit scripting. I know this thread was a cowardly attempt by you to set a scenario you'd argue with against me. It's obvious but you're not very good at the whole debating thing.
The circumstances were different and hand to hand Khan prevailed pver an armored opponent. Results matter. The results of your grievous/Kenobi fight end with him dying. He even tried to escape and lost a fair one on one battle and failed to put Kenobi down in a fist fight. He's the cyborg with the armor and he lacked the power to ko or beat Kenobi despite connecting multiple times. We also see how Khan fared against Spock when armed. Funny thing is he prevailed both times. 😂
False, Kenobi showed major incompetence in taking on Jango. He was disarmed, knocked around, prevented from reacquiring his weapon. That's called incompetence. He later pursued him in his ship and was unable to best Jango there either. So much for precog. Multiple showings of incompetence.
Kenobi also was tagged by a far slower head butt. So by your own logic we ignore the guy who wasn't tagged by a light saber against him but ignore that the same guy was unable to beat down Jango or avoid the far slower head butt.
Khan's speed is greater than what Grievous showed when twirling his hands quickly. Undeniable.
You are forgetting he is fighting aboard a moving craft. That isn't the case here. Khan missed as did Grievous miss punches. Khan prevailed after the crash while Grievous didn't prevail. Khan was about to crush his skull when Uhura showed up and shot him eight times which still didn't put him down. 🙂
Kenobi shouldn't win a fist fight with an armored foe. He even foolishly kicked him because he's an idiot but it didn't matter as Grievous was unable to seriously injure him. Yes, a gun showed that despite Grievous being armed he was easily mowed down. He didn't have the skill to block the attack with his weapon.
So you ignore the rest of the fight and the fact Grievous hasn't dodged any punches. Spock dodged a couple and Khan prevailed. Grevious never dodged a single blow so how is it relevant here ? It isn't you're just obsessed with this but gloss over the outcome one on one here. Grievous also missed punches and foot stomps. Kenobi is on his back and the guy can't even kick him correctly. We see Khan clearly capitalize when his opponent is on his back by kicks to the head, punches, etc. whereas Grievous misses. He doesn't capitalize.
I don't care how quickly I prove they were transported. That's what I claimed you tried changing my argument. Try to pay attention to what I do say, kiddo. I said transported down and can prove it. Period. You can continue to misrepresent English and put words into my mouth but the quote is up there, liar.
No, the blast never touches him. Are you saying fire doesn't burn Jedi ? Points to Anakin burning in rots and chuckles. He was not hit directly. Period. Quit lying. No,mince we have seen force users shot and hurt, killed, etc. for ****s sake you need to prove it not just theorize. Weak.
He lets him go as he flipped him back. He let go as he wasn't putting him into s hold. He caught his kick. Kenobi tried kicking him again.
Jango had Boba get on board because they were leaving so he did what he had to escape. He tried to kill him but that wasn't his objective. Kenobi's objective was to bring him in. Kenobi's objective was to destroy Grievous. You can't argue with success. So if someone lands ten blows and loses by being oneshotted you'd say that guy won because math. 10>1. ****ing pathetic.
Hitting his wounds doesn't mean he can't move around just like he did prior to being shot. It just means he hit his wounds. He also toyed with Finn but got tagged anyways. It is the same thing and just because Khan doesn't hit himself like Kylo does that doesn't mean Kylo doesn't fight in the same movement speed he did throughout the entire film. Being in pain doesn't in and of itself limit movement. Grevious loses here. He was awful in the films. He escaped and later got destroyed after trying to escape a fair one on one fight while being armed.
We also see Khan crush a human skull and know that the Vulcan is vastly superior strength wise to any human being. We also see Khan let someone attack him and hit him and Kirk tire himself out. We later see Anakin clearly hurt Kenobi with physical attacks and yet he lacks the strength of grievous. Kenobi isn't hard to hurt. Grievous just isn't that good despite being much stronger.
It never did. Fire burns them, lasers goes inside of their flesh, etc. The blast hit near him not on him. Evidence is undeniable you blabbering fanboy.
It’s been fun, but you’ve reached a point where you’re relying a lot more on bare assertions and appeals to ridicule as opposed to actually arguing. That and I could literally quote what I’ve said in previous replies to address everything you’ve just said. So I’ll wrap this up. You can have the last word if you want. 🙂
(1) Precognition
A lot has been said here, but here’s the bottom-line: The only relevance Jedi precognition has to this conversation is to explain how Kenobi was able to deal with General Grievous’ super humanely fast saber spinning. Quan has argued that because Kenobi was able to deal with Grievous, Khan would be able to as well, but as I’ve shown throughout the discussion, Kenobi has precog; he can use the force to guide his movements. This is how Jedi deflect blaster fire and how Luke destroyed the Death Star. Needless to say, this is an ability Khan lacks. Therefore, Khan would not be able to replicate Kenobi’s feat.
Quan’s tries to downplay Kenobi’s precog, but as we can see merely by scrolling up and going back over the conversation, the only inference we can draw from Quan’s argument is that Kenobi’s precognition is imperfect, not that it doesn’t exist. It most certainly exist, per the explanations in a New Hope as well as every instance of Kenobi deflecting high-speed blaster fire with his lightsaber.
Quan also tried presenting an argument to the effect that because it’s not actively being stated that Kenobi is using precog, there’s no proof he’s using it. But as I’ve shown, the fallacy in this line of reasoning is pretty clear. You can use this reasoning to dismiss just about any actively used concept that has been previously explained but isn’t actively being acknowledged via statements. Star Trek’s teleportation is a good example.
We know these characters are being beamed down at lightspeed on account of it previously having been explained to us. Quan’s “But we know they’re being transported!” counter-argument is just about as valid as me saying “But we know Kenobi is using the force!” So what? If Quan’s standard is that everything concept needs active explanation in order to be accepted, then it makes no difference. By his logic, we don’t know whether people are always beamed to different locations at lightspeed.
(2) Combat Speed
This is my key argument for Grievous prevailing. He has demonstrated speed far faster than anything Khan has shown himself able to deal with. As we see in Khan’s battle with Spock, Khan gets tagged by Spock’s demonstrably slower moves. Therefore, it stands to reason that he wouldn’t be able to avoid the kind of attack Grievous demonstrates in the ROTS clip I provided. has taken several cracks at attempting to overcome this weakness in his position.
First, he has argued that Khan could go pick up a gun in the arena and use it to blast Grievous. As I’ve explained, Quan is basically arguing that Khan needs at least 3 moves to beat an opponent who only needs 1 move to win. A faster opponent at that. Khan needs to drop the electrostuff he picked up (per the scenario in the OP), look around the spacious room for a gun to use, go towards said gun, pick it up and then blast Grievous. Technically, that’s not even 3 moves; that’s 5 moves. Even if Khan keeps his staff in his hand, he’s still needing to make more moves than Grievous to win. All the while, he has to avoid getting sliced and diced. Using our good friend occam’s razor, who is more likely to prevail in the scenario Quan has drawn for us?
Second, he has argued that Grievous is not fast at all; that he’s slow. His basis for this is Grievous menacingly walking towards Kenobi during their duel; that this walking takes well over 5 seconds. If that’s the standard Quan wishes to use to determine mobility, Quan only hurts his own case given the multiple instances of Khan standing around pointlessly while giving Spock the opportunity to recover and advance; we see Khan standing around pointlessly for as long as 11 seconds while Spock regains his footing. Quan wants to have his cake and eat it! 😉
Third, Quan attempts to dismiss Khan’s incompetence during his fight with Spock by pointing out that the fight was on an aircraft, that he had no weapons, that he was against the entire coordinated efforts of the Enterprise, etc. Basically, that “the circumstances were different!” Completely irrelevant. None of this excuses Khan standing around motionless in one spot for 11 seconds as Spock climbed back onto the aircraft. Nothing about the circumstances warrants this. He could have stomped the vulcan’s hands, he could have done his head-crush maneuver, he could have soccer kicked his head or he could have ran onto another aircraft and “regrouped.” Regardless, that was the perfect chance to kill Spock and he blew it. Quan is simply inventing excuses to explain Khan’s perceived onscreen shortcomings. If we’re permitted to do that, then I can just as easily explain away Grievous’ menacing walk as an effort to intimidate Kenobi or an exercise of caution against a reputable Jedi Master. Again, Quan wants to have his cake and eat it! 😂
Fourth, quan even goes as far as to suggest that Khan’s movements are faster than the ceiling-fan looking saber twirls Grievous is capable of, but one need only examine both scenes to see otherwise.
(3) But Kenobi had trouble with Jango Fett!
This argument has been weak and irrelevant from the getgo. I’ve entertained it for fun, but it’s ridden with holes.
(1) Neither Kenobi nor Jango Fett really have anything to do with this fight. As quan said earlier before accusing me of double standards, apples and oranges. I mean really, what is quan arguing? That Grievous lost to a guy who had some difficulty against a guy who headbutted him and used rockets and explosions? So what? How can any of that to be used to quantify that Khan will do better? All we have from quan here is his word that this somehow makes Khan better. That’s it.
(2) The only possible relevance the Kenobi vs Jango Fett has is measuring Kenobi’s precognition, but I’ve beaten that horse to death.
(3) Kenobi being caught in Jango’s explosion came up. I’m going to post screen-shots of the scene I’m talking about and leave at that. This comes down to whether you believe the sky is blue or not. And there are ample ways to explain how Kenobi came out unscathed. The force barrier ability is one. Would definitely explain how Kenobi isn’t crippled from the scaffold Dooku drops on his legs during their battle in ROTS ( https://youtu.be/eYT3ctPuVRw?t=116 ).
(4) But Grievous lost to Kenobi!
This argument is good to the extent that I’m willing concede, as I have been from the getgo, that if Khan can recreate the circumstances that lead to Kenobi’s victory, Khan has this match in the bag. Were I arguing for Khan, this argument would be my bread and butter. Unfortunately, quan’s reasoning here is less than persuasive.
First, he spends a lot of time talking about a couple of instances of incompetence on Kenobi’s part during the fight. How Kenobi didn’t just TK spam Grievous, how he kicked Grievous’ leg and hurt himself. I guess the suggestion is that if Grievous was defeated by an incompetent opponent, Khan would do much better. We’ve already been down his road both with Khan standing around looking stupid for 11 seconds and him not taking the opportunity to defeat a helpless Spock who is lying on the ground reeling in pain. Khan’s competence is demonstrably beneath Kenobi’s when it comes to combat.
Second, throughout quan’s comparisons, he never takes into account the fact that Kenobi is a force wielder. Kenobi uses the force to guide his movements. Kenobi uses the force throw Grievous around like a ragdoll. Kenobi uses the force to protect himself from being injured by blows strong enough to noticeable dent the exterior of a starship. Kenobi uses the force to grab a blaster just in time to prevent himself from being cut down by Grievous. These supernatural abilities gave Kenobi the edge he needed to come out on top. All quan has going for him is one big false equivalency.
Third, he argues that Grievous didn’t dodge any of Kenobi’s punches, but a simple observation of the fight confirms how ineffective Obiwan’s fisticuffs were against the cyborg. Grievous had no need to dodge any punches, even laughing as the middle-aged Jedi kicked him. And while it’s true that a few of Grievous’ blows missed, the point of the “telegraphed haymaker” contention flies right over quan’s head. It’s not a matter of missing punches, but a matter of throwing punches a skilled combatant has no business throwing.
(5) Khan’s Injuries
This one is very simple. We need only look to Khan’s performance on the Vengeance and then look to his performance against Spock. Is there any notable difference in the way Khan moves? Is there any notable difference in his strength and dexterity? If the answer yes, then it can be inferred that he was notably weakened all throughout his fight with Spock. If the answer is no, such an inference cannot be made. It is that simple.
We talked briefly about the screenplayer writer’s intent. In TFA, the screenplayer writer intended to suggest that Kylo Ren was weakened during his duel with Finn. This is why he gives up a perfectly good opportunity to finish the nonforce wielding human off so that he may deal with his wounds. Avoiding a finishing blow so that you may check your wounds is literally an instance of limited movement.