Originally posted by JBL
1. All-out superman? All out any one of his peer. 2. Regular superman? Regular any one of his peers. Example, me fighting a house cat then fighting a lion for my life, same strength just using it all against that lion. I got no stronger, but that lion required it all. 3. The rest later.
Superman's powers are dynamic, and when he cuts loose, he clearly rises above his so-called peers. No amount of pineapple shoving and BZ challenge dodging will change this.
Deal with it.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
No. Superman gets more of a boost when cutting loose than almost any other character.
FYI, he'll fight tooth and nail to refuse to concede, despite being proven wrong. He won't even do a Battlezone on it. Kept coming up with excuses that "Superman fans would spam it up" even though only the participants, refs, judges and mods(if needed) are allowed to post in them, and kept saying that it would be a biased judging panel because of the Superman fans, despite the fact that A: there's definitely more neutral and haters than there are Superman fans, and B: all participants are to agree on judges to keep it as fair, impartial and unbiased as possible.
He kept making excuses no matter how many pineapples he was offered just for participating, let alone winning.
EDIT: Actually I think it's just me he's afraid to do that with, as I even offered to let him have others help him in the BZ, me against multiple debaters, and he once challenged Pr to the very same topic when he thought he'd be safe against him. For some reason.
Originally posted by Delta1938That's YOUR opinion. In supermans 60+ years of comics, he has always had characters that are almost, just as or stronger than him. At no time in that 60+ years has it been stated, shown or implied that he is slightly, equal to or weaker than any character UNTIL he lets loose. Your fan based beliefs does not match the characters history. Captain Marvel has ALWAYS been close to superman in strength and always will be. There are characters a little to a lot stronger than superman. Show Me a statement from any writer that says superman is weaker than character X UNTIL he goes all out. But I know, we all know everytime superman loses a fight, it's because he held back or mental blocks got his azz handed to him? Get out of here with this crap.
Superman's powers are dynamic, and when he cuts loose, he clearly rises above his so-called peers. No amount of pineapple shoving and BZ challenge dodging will change this.Deal with it.
Originally posted by JBL
That's YOUR opinion. In supermans 60+ years of comics, he has always had characters that are almost, just as or stronger than him. At no time in that 60+ years has it been stated, shown or implied that he is slightly, equal to or weaker than any character UNTIL he lets loose. Your fan based beliefs does not match the characters history. Captain Marvel has ALWAYS been close to superman in strength and always will be. There are characters a little to a lot stronger than superman. Show Me a statement from any writer that says superman is weaker than character X UNTIL he goes all out. But I know, we all know everytime superman loses a fight, it's because he held back or mental blocks got his azz handed to him? Get out of here with this crap.
Except, it has been shown, and you're too afraid to take it to a BZ. Except when you challenged Pr, but you're afraid to take my challenge.
Originally posted by -Pr-
Except they actually did say that in a comic.Superman has dynamic strength, and has for years now.
The argument that he doesn't is either born of ignorance or hate, imo.
Originally posted by JBL
No he does not. I tell you what, let me and you take this to a battlezone. But let me ask you these questions. Why does superman sundipp or gets outside amps? When has superman fought and equal and was noted to stop holding back or drop mental blocks and all of a sudden gets stronger than his stated equal?
Originally posted by Delta1938
Superman's powers are dynamic, and when he cuts loose, he clearly rises above his so-called peers. No amount of pineapple shoving and BZ challenge dodging will change this.Deal with it.
Let's not go too far. Superman is not the Hulk. Superman's dynamism, and the exact nature of it, varies from writer to writer.
I think there are some writers, who, at one end of the spectrum feel that Superman holds back a bit more than other top tiers, but that's it. No great dynamism relative to other heroes. And when he loses or stalemates, he loses or stalemates. Sure, he could have gone harder, bit so could the other guy.
But some writers had a very dynamic Superman. Some in the middle. It's complex.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Let's not go too far. Superman is not the Hulk. Superman's dynamism, and the exact nature of it, varies from writer to writer.
I think there are some writers, who, at one end of the spectrum feel that Superman holds back a bit more than other top tiers, but that's it. No great dynamism relative to other heroes. And when he loses or stalemates, he loses or stalemates. Sure, he could have gone harder, bit so could the other guy.
But some writers had a very dynamic Superman. Some in the middle. It's complex.
Writers having different opinions doesn't change the fact that it's clearly established canon(ever since Byrne) regardless of how it works.
Stop with this Marvel appeasement bullshit. The issue is people denying it exists at all.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
Sure. The guys trying to say he's just like any other hero in this respect are being obtuse.
But thinking there is some strict canon--that something shown unambiguously by some writers automatically applies to others--is almost as big a mistake.
But the way you bring it up the majority of the time(you and I haven't interacted much, but I've seen plenty of your posts over the years) is unnecessary. Yes, writers have different opinions. But this doesn't go just for Superman. It goes for every character. The way you bring it up is pretty much only needed if the topic refers to specific writers and people are bringing up writers not in the topic.
It's a tough thing to just average out and still capture the complexity of the situation. I tend to only describe it in this complexity--writer to writer--when we are talking about the dynamic itself.
Usually, when evaluating Superman fights, I note that he is hard to rate because of the dynamism and the inconsistent nature of its portrayal. But I do tend to rate his fights in a simple, if bifurcated way: all out or normal. But I don't think you can treat his average for "all-out" as OWAW level, either.
I see too many people going to one extreme or the other on this. He's either just like any other hero, or he's the Hulk and could go to OWAW Probe-busting level in any fight if he gets pissed enough. It's somewhere in between, but it's also hard to really articulate where that is.
Answer this. When superman was arm wrestling CM, what made him say that they were too evenly matched? Why didn't he go all out and win? Did his so-called mental blocks block his ability to tell the truth? Every writer agrees that they are close in strength. Fans don't though. Yeah right, fans count.😂
Now the big question. Why does superman sunamp or sundipp? If he had dynamic strength, does the sunamp or sundipp cancel out the mental blocks because he does get stronger.? How did all-star superman get 3 times stronger and how was that scientist able to know that if superman had no base limit to his strength? There are plenty other things.
Every character has beaten people or things that they had no business beating, but only good ole supes gets credit for having dynamic strength when he does this. Spider-Mans strength increased not one bit nor did his speed but he beat a Herald of Galactus. I'm going to say that Spider-Man dynamic strength when he cut loose put him in the class of surfer and Thor since they didn't do that to firelord. High Herald Spider-Man now.
Originally posted by Pillow Biter
It's a tough thing to just average out and still capture the complexity of the situation. I tend to only describe it in this complexity--writer to writer--when we are talking about the dynamic itself.
Usually, when evaluating Superman fights, I note that he is hard to rate because of the dynamism and the inconsistent nature of its portrayal. But I do tend to rate his fights in a simple, if bifurcated way: all out or normal. But I don't think you can treat his average for "all-out" as OWAW level, either.
I see too many people going to one extreme or the other on this. He's either just like any other hero, or he's the Hulk and could go to OWAW Probe-busting level in any fight if he gets pissed enough. It's somewhere in between, but it's also hard to really articulate where that is.
High showings would be what you should call it. He is no Hulk but he does cut lose like any other hero and when that happens, all of them exceed what was shown before.
Originally posted by JBL
Answer this. When superman was arm wrestling CM, what made him say that they were too evenly matched? Why didn't he go all out and win? Did his so-called mental blocks block his ability to tell the truth? Every writer agrees that they are close in strength. Fans don't though. Yeah right, fans count.😂
'Cuz dynamic powers don't work the way you're trying to argue so you can dismiss them. Arm wrestling for pride isn't the same as what we've seen numerous times. He beat Doomsday to death in just a few blows(arguably one going by SUPERMAN: REBIRTH) despite being exhausted and injured, all the while Doomsday had been getting stronger the entire fight. Also, if you actually knew about Superman like you claim(you barely know shit about him), you'd know this was also a weaker era for Superman. Mongul's training was to overcome those very blocks, so kinda contradicts your own argument. And your "yeah fans count 🙄 " statement further shows your ignorance of Superman.
Originally posted by JBL
Now the big question. Why does superman sunamp or sundipp? If he had dynamic strength, does the sunamp or sundipp cancel out the mental blocks because he does get stronger.? How did all-star superman get 3 times stronger and how was that scientist able to know that if superman had no base limit to his strength? There are plenty other things.
Irrelevant strawman, made all the worse by you acting like you know shit about Superman and bringing the wrong version. crylaugh Having a second way to power up does not negate his dynamic mental blocks, as anybody with a modicum of competence can understand.
Originally posted by JBL
Every character has beaten people or things that they had no business beating, but only good ole supes gets credit for having dynamic strength when he does this. Spider-Mans strength increased not one bit nor did his speed but he beat a Herald of Galactus. I'm going to say that Spider-Man dynamic strength when he cut loose put him in the class of surfer and Thor since they didn't do that to firelord. High Herald Spider-Man now.
He gets credit from people both competent AND knowledgeable about Superman because, (GASP) there's numerous in-story examples. 😱 I know!! Surprised me too that some people actually read more than Internet posts about comics!! Back to being serious, there's too many direct and indirect examples, including numerous stories based partially or entirely on Superman's powers being dynamic for anybody that isn't an idiot, ignorant, just in denial, or some combination of the three to deny. I've proven you were previously willing to BZ it, but then fear it when I challenged you. Your pathetic excuses for declining it are just that. Pathetic excuses.
Originally posted by carver9
High showings would be what you should call it. He is no Hulk but he does cut lose like any other hero and when that happens, all of them exceed what was shown before.
You're welcome to BZ me on it, but considering your numerous excuses and even outright attempts to change my Superman vs Wonder Woman BZ challenge, and refuse to actually decline the challenge, just not answer to save what little pride you have left, I know you won't. Since you're a little kitten who's all hiss, no scratch.