Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Shaak Ti is fodder. She's died three times for **** sake
I find that a little amusing and rather bad tbh, bad because it's like they didn't know what to do with her because they retconned her death twice, before settling on TFU. I mean one death retcon, ok that's fine, they wanted to let her live to do something, but doing it twice?
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, three times. It recently got retconned back to the original version.
Well yeah 3 times, the 3rd being TFU unless there was a 3rd retcon death I'm unaware of.
But source saying that it got retconned back to it's original version?
I know Yoda's vision has Anakin's blade stabbing her from behind, but is that noted as what actually happened somewhere? Unless that's what you're referring to.
Originally posted by TheNuisanceBird
They low value Maul and Anakin on a consistent basis.
By "low value" you of course mean "don't overhype." Jen and Evan present sensible and logical analyses of Maul and Anakin. Just because they acknowledge their shortcomings and don't paint them as completely unbeatable does not equal low valuing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Like Sel says, Traya used the Force prior to entering the council chambers and then to TK the council. The idea that she prepped for the drain is just a speculation with no evidence and is contradicted by her using the Force prior to her drain.This also applies with Zallow apparently just using textbook Ataru, which is again just fanon garbage.
I could easily counter that Qui-Gon's Ataru would be less effective than Zallows because of his age, which limits his stamina and physicals. An argument that is actually supported in evidence.
And these guys ARE forming arguments to support their ideas. The fact that so many of these arguments are built around faulty assumptions and flat out lies is why they lack a shred of credibility, along with their clear incompetence.
I'll get back to you.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Chilled, explain to me the Plo Koon > Anakin and Maul and Shaak Ti > Anakin and Maul. Give me your best arguments.
I'll need to re-watch a few videos to give you a fully thought out answer to that. In the meantime, off the top of my head, it basically comes down to the fact that Anakin isn't much of a planner and focuses too much on offence, often becoming highly reckless as his fights go on. Also, while he does integrate Force powers into his lightsabre sequences he generally only does so after his opponent does. Even then he uses them in very blunt, unsophisticated methods.
Compare that to, for example, Ti using the Force to tie Grievous's cloak to a train. When do we ever see Anakin using that kind of cleverness and subtlety? Don't get me wrong, Anakin is smart, but he's more of a tactical opportunist than a real planner.
Put simply, Ti and Plo are more balanced and well-rounded, better planners/tacticians and make better use of their Force powers.
Again, this is just a rough answer. I'll provide more details later.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Like Sel says, Traya used the Force prior to entering the council chambers and then to TK the council. The idea that she prepped for the drain is just a speculation with no evidence and is contradicted by her using the Force prior to her drain.
There IS evidence. Give me an example of Traya sucking dry three Jedi Masters when she was caught completely unawares and hadn't had time to gather her energies. Oh wait, you can't.
Also her using the Force prior to that does nothing to diminish the fact that she'd had time to gather her power. It's not like that gathered focus would disappear instantly
Originally posted by Nephthys
This also applies with Zallow apparently just using textbook Ataru, which is again just fanon garbage.
LOL! Watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdgmH9Vv2-I
Heavy emphasis on speed and movement? Check. Aggressive and offence-focused? Check. Integrated unarmed strikes? Check. Heavy use of acrobatics? Check. Leaping and flipping all over the place? Check.
Textbook Ataru right there.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I could easily counter that Qui-Gon's Ataru would be less effective than Zallows because of his age, which limits his stamina and physicals. An argument that is actually supported in evidence.
You're not making any sense. The entire reason Qui-Gon re-tooled his style was to compensate for his decreased stamina. That means his personal Ataru style MUST be more energy-efficient or what would be the point? Put simply the individual (in this case Qui-Gon) is "at fault," not the style itself.
You might as well say, "that guy lost because he has asthma so his style is less effective." The "style" is not at fault if the individual has some kind of physical shortcoming.
Anyway, the real point isn't "my style's better than yours" (which is nonsense anyway). It's the fact that Qui-Gon has a better understanding of Ataru (which he would need to re-tool it like he did) and so would quickly suss out Zallow's more basic skills so he could better anticipate his actions.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
I'll need to re-watch a few videos to give you a fully thought out answer to that. In the meantime, off the top of my head, it basically comes down to the fact that Anakin isn't much of a planner and focuses too much on offence, often becoming highly reckless as his fights go on. Also, while he does integrate Force powers into his lightsabre sequences he generally only does so after his opponent does. Even then he uses them in very blunt, unsophisticated methods.Compare that to, for example, Ti using the Force to tie Grievous's cloak to a train. When do we ever see Anakin using that kind of cleverness and subtlety? Don't get me wrong, Anakin is smart, but he's more of a tactical opportunist than a real planner.
Put simply, Ti and Plo are more balanced and well-rounded, better planners/tacticians and make better use of their Force powers.
Again, this is just a rough answer. I'll provide more details later.
"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe." --NG
Skywalker integrated telekinesis into his attacks during the novelization portrayal of the Mustafar fight, and the comic portrayal of the Invisible Hand fight.
Also, the fact they integrate it isn't relevant anyway since Skywalker is vastly more powerful than them. If he wanted to, he could crush their necks.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
If Zallow is textbook then so is Yoda... Pretty much all Ataru masters are textbook, it's the way all Jedi were taught
Exactly. That's one of Jen's most valid and logical criticisms of Yoda and Jedi in general.
To clarify, yes I know Jen has made some very dubious views on Yoda's skills, but if you take the time and really pay attention to what he says, he does have some legitimate points as well.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker isn't reckless. He's literally just so good he doesn't need to try:"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe." --NG
NO-ONE is unbeatable. People who THINK they are are setting themselves up for a fall. Look at Buffy Summers in the episode "Fool for Love." She was nearly killed by a regular vampire because she got cocky and thought there was no way it could possibly happen.
And guess what? Anakin was beaten by Kenobi.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker integrated telekinesis into his attacks during the novelization portrayal of the Mustafar fight, and the comic portrayal of the Invisible Hand fight.
And your point is? I already said that.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Also, the fact they integrate it isn't relevant anyway since Skywalker is vastly more powerful than them.
Power isn't everything. A smarter and/or more skilled opponent will often defeat a more powerful one.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If he wanted to, he could crush their necks.
Except he wouldn't since he prefers to beat his foes in lightsabre combat. That's another important point, mind-set. Just because he CAN do something, that doesn't mean he WILL.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Chilled, that Yoda video is gross. He starts off with some substance and it's looking good, then the rest is just a massive rant filled with personal opinion and theories backed up by nothing. He has even admitted this in later videos...
Very true. I was mainly talking about the Yoda vs. Malek video. Sorry, I should have been clearer.
NO-ONE is unbeatable. People who THINK they are are setting themselves up for a fall. Look at Buffy Summers in the episode "Fool for Love." She was nearly killed by a regular vampire because she got cocky and thought there was no way it could possibly happen.
Gillard said he knew he was the best.
And guess what? Anakin was beaten by Kenobi.
Power isn't everything. A smarter and/or more skilled opponent will often defeat a more powerful one.
Except he wouldn't since he prefers to beat his foes in lightsabre combat. That's another important point, mind-set. Just because he CAN do something, that doesn't mean he WILL.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Chilled, explain to me the Plo Koon > Anakin and Maul and Shaak Ti > Anakin and Maul. Give me your best arguments.
Okay, just re-watched the "Plo Koon vs. Darth Vader" video. It reiterates many of my original points. Essentially Plo is a better tactician than Anakin and is more well-rounded and balanced.
The best example would again be Plo's duel with Asajj. Not only was he able to fight toe-to-toe with her despite having a busted arm, he was able to control the fight and use it as a distraction while accomplishing his mission.
Also while he is highly skilled, Anakin is too much of an offensive juggernaut, just charging in and trying to batter his way through everything. Plo would be able to meet his assault head-on and counter everything he throws at him while Anakin grows increasingly reckless as his blitzkrieg attack fails.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The quote, written by the same guy who wrote and choreographed all the scenes that your gods analyzed, didn't state Anakin thought he was the best.Gillard said he knew he was the best.
I don't care. The fact remains that it's a hyperbolic statement that is not meant to be taken literally (and if you do take it literally than I'm sorry but that is REALLY dumb).
Plus, Gillard also claimed that in the Anakin vs. Kenobi duel nothing was wasted. Every move served a purpose. That is clearly complete nonsense as that duel was full of wasteful moves that served no purpose at all.
Statements like that should always be taken with a grain of salt.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Due to him being hindered. It wasn't his standard performance.
A technicality. The fact is that the guy who "knows he's unbeatable" was in fact, beaten. Meaning he is in fact not unbeatable.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Not when the power gap is simply too extreme (ex. Anakin vs Plo or Shaak).
Not really. There was a huge power gap between Bane and Kas'sim, yet Kas'sim was able to completely block Bane's Force Wave. Also, I remind you that Anakin was far from unlocking his full potential.
How is Plo a better tactician? Reti comes to this conclusion because Koon is one of the high generals which is irrelevant in combat, military strategy is not worth mentioning as it has ZERO to do with 1v1 combat.
Anakin is notably stronger than Ventress to start with physically plus Jar'Kai is famous for lacking strength PLUS Anakin's augmentation is far superior to Asajj's. Don't be so sure Anakin can't overpower Koon which Savage did to an extent.
Yes, Anakin never reached him potential obviously... But he still has far superior raw power tha Plo. I will concede that Plo has greater control and refinement but think of this
If Plo's raw force power is a 6 and Anakin's is a 10, no amount of refinement will help.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
How is Plo a better tactician? Reti comes to this conclusion because Koon is one of the high generals which is irrelevant in combat, military strategy is not worth mentioning as it has ZERO to do with 1v1 combat.
Beg your pardon but not so. As Jensaarai1 pointed out, in Plo's duel with Asajj he masterfully controlled the fight by keeping her occupied and stopping her from reinforcing her troops while his took control of the facility.
Yes that was not a purely 1v1 scenario but the point is that Plo was able to not only hold his own but stay focused on the big picture and use the duel as a tool to achieve the real purpose. Would Anakin have done the same thing in his boots? Heck no, he'd have focused entirely on beating Asajj.
Put simply anyone who has the kind of ingenuity Plo displayed will be much better at controlling the fight and at manipulating the opponent. Luring the enemy to locations of their choosing, using their surroundings etc. rather than just trying to beat them down.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Anakin is notably stronger than Ventress to start with physically plus Jar'Kai is famous for lacking strength PLUS Anakin's augmentation is far superior to Asajj's. Don't be so sure Anakin can't overpower Koon which Savage did to an extent.
Not really. Savage didn't "overpower" him, just yanked his breath mask off while he was distracted.
Originally posted by chingchangwalla
Yes, Anakin never reached him potential obviously... But he still has far superior raw power tha Plo. I will concede that Plo has greater control and refinement but think of this
If Plo's raw force power is a 6 and Anakin's is a 10, no amount of refinement will help.
This is where we must agree to disagree. Captain America for example, has contended with and even beaten foes whose raw power was far greater than his own.
Originally posted by chilled monkey
Beg your pardon but not so. As Jensaarai1 pointed out, in Plo's duel with Asajj he masterfully controlled the fight by keeping her occupied and stopping her from reinforcing her troops while his took control of the facility.
Yes, he controlled the fight given how he... got kicked, got driven against the fall and landed a leeway Force Push on her once.