Darth Vader: When is he allowed to struggle?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
??? That's what he was always intended to be. In the movies he was this evil, intimidating, unstoppable enforcer on the surface before Luke peeled back his layers (physically and metaphorically) revealing the sick, sad man we now know was underneath. But these stories feature him before that, when he was really a frightening adversary the Rebels had no idea how to face. The ultimate hero turned villain.

Meh. I never saw him that way. In ANH Kenobi lets him win and then he gets punked by Han. In ESB we see his gross scarred head and learn he's Lukes dad. And then RotJ. He seemed threatening but like you said, underneath he's a pathetic cripple.

Maybe its because I just hate Anakin enough that its ruined the entire character for me, but I really dislike how Vader gets glorified in materials. I guess I just can't find him cool and likeable anymore. He isn't cool, he's a bastard who killed children and then got crippled like a little b*tch and spent the rest of his life grovelling at Sidious' robes like the pathetic spineless worm that he is. I just can't root for the guy and enjoy him doing cool stuff. I want to see him get wrecked, not wreck shit up.

I like Vader as a character, I even have one of those lame/cool pose-able figures on my desk on him. But I can't find him awesome anymore.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's because he is, dear. That doesn't make him a Mary Sue, that makes him the main antagonist.

Regardless this is laughable, you b1tch and moan that they are ruining the villain when he gets beaten, but when he doesn't he's a Mary Sue? Make up your ****ing mind lmao.

Sidious is the main antagonist, Vader is the tragic fallen hero who turns good at the end.

I didn't ***** and moan, I thought Maul getting punked was amazing and hilarious and completely what the wretched scum deserves.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Sidious is the main antagonist, Vader is the tragic fallen hero who turns good at the end.

I didn't ***** and moan, I thought Maul getting punked was amazing and hilarious and completely what the wretched scum deserves.

Well that's nice, but you probably moaned about Grievous or something, you seem like a whiney person in general. 🙂

Originally posted by Nephthys
I didn't ***** and moan, I thought Maul getting punked was amazing and hilarious and completely what the wretched scum deserves.

Neph's personal disdain for fictional characters is cute tbh.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious is the Big Bad, that doesn't make him the main antagonist, not with his screen time. No, Vader is the Heavy and therefore absolutely the main villain of the OT.

Well that's nice, but you probably moaned about Grievous or something, you seem like a whiney person in general. 🙂

Yuck, tvtropes. Nothing you said necessitates him being an ultimate badass. He isn't, which is why he gets totally punked at the end of ANH.

Meh, thats pretty different. GG was introduced as a badass who wrecked Jedi and then downgraded to clown. Going from the shit to just shit legit weakens him as a villain. And we don't really see him do anything that evil that makes me hate him enough to want to see him lose. With Vader he was introduced pretty conservatively and then they keep trying to make him cooler and badassier which I think misses the point of the character. Obviously I'm not saying have him constantly lose or become weak, I just find the constant glorifications to be distasteful.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yuck, tvtropes. Nothing you said necessitates him being an ultimate badass. He isn't, which is why he gets totally punked at the end of ANH.

Really the idea that the main antagonist of the OT could be the guy who wasn't even in the first film, barely made an appearance in ESB and is practically non-existent in Rebels is ludicrous.

Evidently you are clueless when it comes to storytelling. 🙂

Meh, thats pretty different. GG was introduced as a badass who wrecked Jedi and then downgraded to clown. Going from the shit to just shit legit weakens him as a villain. And we don't really see him do anything that evil that makes me hate him. With Vader he was introduced pretty conservatively and then they keep trying to make him cooler and badassier which I think misses the point of the character. Obviously I'm not saying have him constantly lose or become weak, I just find the constant glorifications to be distasteful.

Rebels on the other hand plays him perfectly, as terrifying and powerful. 👆

And what do you mean distasteful? Because he's done bad things? He's a villain lmao.

P.S. You just said you want him to get wrecked, rather than do his job, evidently you're just pissed off at the character.

>Vader pwns noobs in Rebels
>Neph mad because he ain't getting wrecked
>Vader gets wrecked in TFU
>Neph mad because the guy wrecking him is too good

>Neph gets mad

🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yup, its called common sense, and no, he did not.

Really the idea that the main antagonist of the OT could be the guy who wasn't even in the first film, barely made an appearance in ESB and is practically non-existent in Rebels is ludicrous.

Evidently you are clueless when it comes to storytelling. 🙂

Hardly, the villain can be effective without getting masturbatory. However, thats largely irrelevant. My issue isn't really with Vader as a villain, its with Vader when he's treated like the protagonist and gets fellated to high heaven.

Not really. I consider Ozai to be the clear main villain of AtLA despite him having far less screentime than Zuko, Azula or whatshisname from season 1.

Not to mention that accounting for the PT, Sidious' role as the main antagonist of the movies is undeniable. Besides, Vader is arguably not even really the main villain in ANH and he's barely an antagonist in RotJ, where the conflict becomes saving him instead of defeating him.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Vader was introduced conservatively? Lol, every scene he was in involved ruining someone's day. And his black armour, his bass tone, his heavy breathing, his ****ing theme tune, are clearly intended to evoke terror, awe and badassery. It being only until RotJ that we get to see his vulnerable side. You are the one who has misunderstood the character dear.

Rebels on the other hand plays him perfectly, as terrifying and powerful. 👆

And what do you mean distasteful? Because he's done bad things? He's a villain lmao.

P.S. You just said you want him to get wrecked, rather than do his job, evidently you're just pissed off at the character.

Conservatively compared to him stomping everything around him, tossing out one-liners and having comics and books based around the premise that "Darth Vader is really cool". Like I said, I have no issue with him being threatening, cool and villainous. My problem comes when he's treated as too cool, like we're supposed to be rooting for him. And we see his vulnerable side in ESB.

I agree, Rebels did him perfectly. He was powerful, threatening and villainous. He served his role in the story exactly how he should.

Yes, and that's my point. He's the villain, not a character to build stories about how badass he is around and to follow around and see him murder innocent people. I don't find that fun.

P.S. Yeah, because he's a villain. You're supposed to want him to lose instead of the more heroic characters.

Regardless I don't know why we're debating this, its my opinion it's not right or wrong, lol. This is just something I don't like. I also don't like slasher movies where you root for the killer, go figure.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
>Vader pwns noobs in Rebels
>Neph mad because he ain't getting wrecked
>Vader gets wrecked in TFU
>Neph mad because the guy wrecking him is too good

I liked both of these things actually. Good try tho.

Villains can't have stories now?

no they are banned

Originally posted by Beniboybling
you b1tch and moan

😉

Originally posted by Nephthys
no they are banned

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Making Vader the Ultimate Bad Ass is one of the things Disney has done right actually.

And I think Legends might need to look up what being a Mary Sue means. Because Vader doesn't fit that even if we ignore his gender.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Hardly, the villain can be effective without getting masturbatory. However, thats largely irrelevant. My issue isn't really with Vader as a villain, its with Vader when he's treated like the protagonist and gets fellated to high heaven.

Not really. I consider Ozai to be the clear main villain of AtLA despite him having far less screentime than Zuko, Azula or whatshisname from season 1.

Not to mention that accounting for the PT, Sidious' role as the main antagonist of the movies is undeniable. Besides, Vader is arguably not even really the main villain in ANH and he's barely an antagonist in RotJ, where the conflict becomes saving him instead of defeating him.

Anyway is Sidious the main villain in an overarching sense? Sure. But that doesn't alter the storytelling of the OT in which yeah, Vader is the main villain, as in he is the main obstacle to the protagonist. Just like Kylo Ren is the main villain of TFA, not Snoke.

And no, Luke was trying to save Anakin from Vader, Vader still needed to be defeated, and was Luke's main obstacle in that regard, it was merely a question of how it was done.

Conservatively compared to him stomping everything around him, tossing out one-liners and having comics and books based around the premise that "Darth Vader is really cool". Like I said, I have no issue with him being threatening, cool and villainous. My problem comes when he's treated as too cool, like we're supposed to be rooting for him. And we see his vulnerable side in ESB.

I agree, Rebels did him perfectly. He was powerful, threatening and villainous. He served his role in the story exactly how he should.

Yes, and that's my point. He's the villain, not a character to build stories about how badass he is around and to follow around and see him murder innocent people. I don't find that fun.

P.S. Yeah, because he's a villain. You're supposed to want him to lose instead of the more heroic characters.

But of course the more badass the villain the more rewarding the victory, so wrong again.

Regardless I don't know why we're debating this, its my opinion it's not right or wrong, lol. This is just something I don't like. I also don't like slasher movies where you root for the killer, go figure.

Vader isn't even the villain, so he doesn't have to lose anything. He may be the villain for Rebels, but the only story that matters is the story of Star Wars itself, of which he is undoubtedly the tragic hero. He has to make it to the end, and that ending has to matter. Losing over and over again, like your name is Mauls, is not desired.

Vader lost many times and has been confined to a suit for decades. He lost his wife and his mother. He cried and sobbed over everything like a natural born pansy. Maul is twice the man Anakin crybaby Skywalker will ever be. He also flip flopped a lot. Weak. Vader's life is full of tragedy. Poor burned cripple that he was.

And everyone is literally twice the man Maul is 🙂

And four times the character. 👆

Originally posted by cs_zoltan
And everyone is literally twice the man Maul is 🙂