Galen at the beginning of the game isn't even remotely Vader level, he's being stalemated by a guy Vader casually thrashed, and the Shaak Ti fight is closer in the timeline to the Kota fight than the Vader fight with the only opponent who strained them between the two being Kazdan Paratus.
Based on you trying to compare Felucia Galen's dueling prowess to Vader's, that would mean you're suggesting he went from Kota level to Vader level in even less than a year due to a fight with Kazdan Paratus where he didn't make any headway in lightsaber combat and resorted to Force spamming.
Yeah, I don't see how Galen, who nearly perfected his Lightsaber skill from a technical standpoint - would receive a monumental boost in adroitness in such a short time span.
I mean it's possible, as it is Star Wars, but that kinda growth is seen in someone that just recently started using the Force, and didn't formally train before, rather than someone that was raised to be a ultimate killing machine since his childhood.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Galen at the beginning of the game isn't even remotely Vader level, he's being stalemated by a guy Vader casually thrashed,
Vader didn't trash prime Kota tho.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
and the Shaak Ti fight is closer in the timeline to the Kota fight than the Vader fight with the only opponent who strained them between the two being Kazdan Paratus.
And Galen only fought Proxy and Maris between Ti and Vader.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Based on you trying to compare Felucia Galen's dueling prowess to Vader's, that would mean you're suggesting he went from Kota level to Vader level in even less than a year due to a fight with Kazdan Paratus where he didn't make any headway in lightsaber combat and resorted to Force spamming.
Lel, Galen oneshotted Kazdan that's why he didn't engage him in sabers. This argument strangely reminds me of the "Vader didn't ragdoll Ahsoka hence he can't" argumnet.
Originally posted by cs_zoltan
Vader didn't trash prime Kota tho.And Galen only fought Proxy and Maris between Ti and Vader.
Lel, Galen oneshotted Kazdan that's why he didn't engage him in sabers. This argument strangly reminds me of the "Vader didn't ragdoll Ahsoka hence he can't" argumnet.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Galen at the beginning of the game isn't even remotely Vader level, he's being stalemated by a guy Vader casually thrashed, and the Shaak Ti fight is closer in the timeline to the Kota fight than the Vader fight with the only opponent who strained them between the two being Kazdan Paratus.
A Kota who'd "lost his connection to the Force" and hadn't held a lightsaber in two years. A Kota who was blind and as out of practice as a Jedi possibly could be.
Based on you trying to compare Felucia Galen's dueling prowess to Vader's, that would mean you're suggesting he went from Kota level to Vader level in even less than a year due to a fight with Kazdan Paratus where he didn't make any headway in lightsaber combat and resorted to Force spamming. [/B]
There's no established Timeline for TFU, so you saying the Shaak Ti fight is closer to the Kota fight than Vader is baseless, as far as I'm aware. All we know is that Shaak died at the end of 3 BBY and Galen died somewhere in 2 BBY mmm
And no, he went from being above Kota level to close to Vader level in a year. Suggesting he started off not too far from Vader isn't wild, anyway. I don't know why you have this ridiculous idea that Vader would stomp a prime force wielding Kota in a couple of Lightsaber strikes, since he couldn't even do that to Sha Koon.
Kota and Marek's duel in the comic is brief, the same in the novel. It was interrupted and a terrible gauge of Galen's power.
But you're willing to solidly define Galen from it as tiers below Vader simply because he didn't stomp a character Vader likely wouldn't in three strikes.... right.
Holy **** Sel, I'm not using circular logic. I'm not saying Galen is shit because he couldn't stomp Ti and therefore Ti is shit because of her fight with Galen.
I'm saying you can't prove Galen is on the same level of dueling ability he hasn't displayed yet. You seem to act like the burden of proof is on everyone else to prove Felucia Galen isn't a Vader level duelist when the only thing suggesting that is a feat that the incarnation of Galen in question hasn't accomplished.
I'm not saying Ti should be downscaled off of Felucia Galen who should be downscaled off of Ti, I'm simply saying Ti can't be scaled off of Vader because Felucia Galen hasn't earned such scaling off of Vader.
What's painful to read here is that you're accusing people here of logical fallacies like circular logic when you're pulling this reverse timeline scaling shit and scaling Felucia Galen off of feats he hasn't accomplished yet that take place after a notable amount of time, several missions, a stated skill increase, a stated physical increase, several stated increases force ability, and a Force alignment shift.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Holy **** Sel, I'm not using circular logic. I'm not saying Galen is shit because he couldn't stomp Ti and therefore Ti is shit because of her fight with Galen.I'm saying you can't prove Galen is on the same level of dueling ability he hasn't displayed yet. You seem to act like the burden of proof is on everyone else to prove Felucia Galen isn't a Vader level duelist when the only thing suggesting that is a feat that the incarnation of Galen in question hasn't accomplished.
I'm not saying Ti should be downscaled off of Felucia Galen who should be downscaled off of Ti, I'm simply saying Ti can't be scaled off of Vader because Felucia Galen hasn't earned such scaling off of Vader.
What's painful to read here is that you're accusing people here of logical fallacies like circular logic when you're pulling this reverse timeline scaling shit and scaling Felucia Galen off of feats he hasn't accomplished yet that take place after a notable amount of time, several missions, a stated skill increase, a stated physical increase, several stated increases force ability, and a Force alignment shift.
Except you are. You're using the illogical conclusion that fits your wishful interpretation of events.
Let me break it down for you.
Kota, Shaak Ti and Kazdan Paratus are all unknowns as of The Force Unleashed. Their power levels are unknown. That does not make them mooks, it makes them unknowns. I'm not sure how that's difficult for you to grasp.
Your interpretation is that since Kota is unheard of, he's bad. That he's "far from Vader tier" etc. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think Kota's a Vader tier combatant, but he has insane feats and some solid hype.
Yet when everyone talks about the hype Galen has, like being a "near perfect duelist" who's "as talented with the blade as he is with The Force", the argument that he couldn't slaughter Kota comes out against him. Or that he didn't blitz Kazdan Paratus (which he did) or that he struggled against Ti so clearly wasn't prime.
Every single one of those is circular logic, you are judging Galen Marek by characters who can only be judged by their showings against Marek, or the hype that everyone is so happy to dismiss.
The only character in the entire series that you can scale from is Vader. Now to clear something up, Galen beat Vader, and then had the Force Reserves to stalemate Sidious long enough for his crew to escape. He wasn't just a match by the time of his fight on the Death Star, he was TFU Vader's better. Given how Vader is the only character in the series who's got feats outside of the game, he's the best way to scale an End Game Marek. He's also the only way to really scale the unknowns.
The fact is, Starkiller's early missions were designed to be his training. When he had killed Shaak Ti, Vader determined he was at his peak. There was no-one else left to fight who would train Starkiller more to fight The Emperor. Even if Galen had unexpected skill increases, a refinement in his ability to use the Force, etc, they were not going to be drastic.
I am not saying Galen's fight with Vader can definitively place Shaak Ti as a combatant. However, someone who is a better duelist than Felucia!Galen, who after a short period of (likely slight) improvement defeats Darth Vader, will not be below Aryn Leneer or Kas'im.
She can't be definitively placed from that feat alone, but there is certainly a ballpark area which she resides in, thanks to said feat.
And if you honestly believe that scaling her from a Marek who we scale by his defeats of two unknown characters is the best way of accurately judging her character than you're beyond hope.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
Except you are. You're using the illogical conclusion that fits your wishful interpretation of events.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
Let me break it down for you.
Kota, Shaak Ti and Kazdan Paratus are all unknowns as of The Force Unleashed. Their power levels are unknown. That does not make them mooks, it makes them unknowns. I'm not sure how that's difficult for you to grasp.
Your interpretation is that since Kota is unheard of, he's bad. That he's "far from Vader tier" etc. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think Kota's a Vader tier combatant, but he has insane feats and some solid hype.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
Yet when everyone talks about the hype Galen has, like being a "near perfect duelist" who's "as talented with the blade as he is with The Force", the argument that he couldn't slaughter Kota comes out against him. Or that he didn't blitz Kazdan Paratus (which he did) or that he struggled against Ti so clearly wasn't prime.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
Every single one of those is circular logic, you are judging Galen Marek by characters who can only be judged by their showings against Marek, or the hype that everyone is so happy to dismiss.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
The only character in the entire series that you can scale from is Vader. Now to clear something up, Galen beat Vader, and then had the Force Reserves to stalemate Sidious long enough for his crew to escape. He wasn't just a match by the time of his fight on the Death Star, he was TFU Vader's better. Given how Vader is the only character in the series who's got feats outside of the game, he's the best way to scale an End Game Marek. He's also the only way to really scale the unknowns.
I don't agree that Galen beating Vader can be scaled back to an incarnation of himself over a year ago and the characters combatively affiliated with him.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
The fact is, Starkiller's early missions were designed to be his training. When he had killed Shaak Ti, Vader determined he was at his peak. There was no-one else left to fight who would train Starkiller more to fight The Emperor.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
Even if Galen had unexpected skill increases, a refinement in his ability to use the Force, etc, they were not going to be drastic.
And then his raw skill increased enough even from Nar Shadda to Felucia (literally one mission later) for him to be noticeably satisfied with his improvement, which really doesn't seem marginal, and it shows that even between two missions his skills can improve.
"The troopers started firing before he had taken two paces toward them. They were dead long before he reached the door, killed by their own reflected fire. The Imperial Guard lasted barely as long, felled with four swift lightsaber strokes then shocked with lightning as he dropped backward to the ground. The apprentice' nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa."
And there are quite a few quotes for him experiencing numerous power growths between Felucia and his fight with Vader, some of which are implied to be fairly notable:
"All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before."
“I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.”
And not to mention Galen has been doing plenty of crazy shit with the Force since Felucia that would help him develop his ability there, so the argument you used for his dueling skill that he wasn't tested enough for any significant improvement doesn't work here.
And on top of this, Galen Marek's Force alignment and perspective on the Force changed completely, which is something established through the lore as having an effect on power, how one wields the Force, and their entire mindset.
So Galen is confirmed to improve pretty considerably in physicality, notably in skill, and pretty damn significantly in Force power, alongside his mindset being changed, all of which relate rather heavily impact his overall dueling prowess, so yes, I think it's reasonable to not scale Felucia Galen off of a Galen whose experienced growths, some quite notable, in so many categories.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
I am not saying Galen's fight with Vader can definitively place Shaak Ti as a combatant. However, someone who is a better duelist than Felucia!Galen, who after a short period of (likely slight) improvement defeats Darth Vader, will not be below Aryn Leneer or Kas'im.
​Origi​nally posted by Selenial ​
She can't be definitively placed from that feat alone, but there is certainly a ballpark area which she resides in, thanks to said feat.
And if you honestly believe that scaling her from a Marek who we scale by his defeats of two unknown characters is the best way of accurately judging her character than you're beyond hope.
Again, why is the burden on any of us to prove Felucia Galen isn't Vader level and not on you to prove Felucia Galen is Vader level? Sure he may be largely undefined, but when characters are undefined in debates, its up to the person wanking them to actually prove their worth instead of assuming them to be close to a later incarnation of themselves.
I'm not asserting that he's Vader level, I'm merely asserting that he's close. The logical power progression for a character indicates this. The overarching plot of the novel indicates this. You are the one that is trying to say that he transforms from a sub Kas'im level combatant to a Vader tier combatant in a matter of months*. That is an incredible growth that no character in the series, not even Anakin with his outrageous potential, has shown. There's nothing in the text that indicates a significant increase in power, or skill, after Felucia, which fits with the overall context of it being his final test.
Yours is the logical conclusion, and in situations of unknowns the logical conclusion must be the one accepted unless proven otherwise, and you so far have not come up with a single note from the text that actually substantiates such a significant change in Marek's being.
* Yes, months. Shaak Ti died at the end of 3 BBY. Marek faced Vader in 2 BBY. However the events of TFU II take place at the Start of 1 BBY, and by that point the Rebel fleet is in full operation, the Rebel alliance is already a significant threat, Vader has been training Starkillers for months and Kota has been captured. There is no way that there was a year between Felucia and the Death Star.
This entire argument falls flat since this supposed purpose for which he was being trained turned out to be a complete sham and he was really being used to attract the Rebels. Vader never intended to take out Sheev with him.
No, that's what Vader used him for after Sidious discovered him. Vader's been explored in numerous legends texts that show him around this time wanting to overthrow Palpatine.
Even if Vader was training him for being a force for the Rebels to rally behind, Vader needed him at his peak for that so as to not be killed by anything the Empire could throw at him.
Let's see, Galen's baseline physicality has been improved from the point to which a blow would've otherwise killed him to the point where he was able to stay conscious, keep moving, and survive falling off of a cliff after taking such a blow, so his baseline physicality has been rather notably improved.
"THE APPRENTICE CROUCHED FACEDOWN in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to one mistake his Master had made. He had been rebuilt tougher than before."
Durability has no effect on dueling. It even says tougher, not stronger.
Even so, baseline physicality rarely has any effect on people in Star Wars, force application is much more important.
And then his raw skill increased enough even from Nar Shadda to Felucia (literally one mission later) for him to be noticeably satisfied with his improvement, which really doesn't seem marginal, and it shows that even between two missions his skills can improve.
"The troopers started firing before he had taken two paces toward them. They were dead long before he reached the door, killed by their own reflected fire. The Imperial Guard lasted barely as long, felled with four swift lightsaber strokes then shocked with lightning as he dropped backward to the ground. The apprentice' nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa."
Felucia was two missions later. His skill increased from Nar Shaddaa to Kashyyk. Minor correction, but I guess it does show how little you know the text mmm
I've already discussed this with Beni, however.
And there are quite a few quotes for him experiencing numerous power growths between Felucia and his fight with Vader, some of which are implied to be fairly notable:
"All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before."“I’m not wearing out,” he said. “The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We’re the ones who limit it, not the other way around.”
And not to mention Galen has been doing plenty of crazy shit with the Force since Felucia that would help him develop his ability there, so the argument you used for his dueling skill that he wasn't tested enough for any significant improvement doesn't work here.
I agree with that, I know he increased as a Force User. Not substantially however, as a lot of the feats he has performed pre-Felucia are enough to place him incredibly high as a Force Wielder, so the argument of improvement becomes irrelevant because we already know he had insane strength in The Force.
So Galen is confirmed to improve pretty considerably in physicality, notably in skill, and pretty damn significantly in Force power, alongside his mindset being changed, all of which relate rather heavily impact his overall dueling prowess, so yes, I think it's reasonable to not scale Felucia Galen off of a Galen whose experienced growths, some quite notable, in so many categories.
No, he's confirmed to be tougher in an area that's often irrelevant. "notably" in Skill as an overall combatant, able to blitz through fodder, and significantly in the Force, which I've never contested.
So let's put that back into his fight with Shaak Ti then.
She was considerably faster. She was considerably stronger. She bested him with The Force while already using it to dominate a Sarlacc. She was, in all likelihood, his better in Skill, if only barely.
So even if Galen's force reserves increased, he was allowed far greater speed, he got marginally more skilled as a duelist and was stronger in physicality as well... your placement of Shaak Ti level is still horrendously misjudged and disjointed, and ruins the entire progression of the novel.
Because as I've already pointed out to you.
Shaak Ti beat Felucia!Galen. End Game Galen beat TFU Vader.
So if you suggest Shaak Ti < Kas'im, then Felucia!Galen must be << Kas'im. You are also suggesting in the space of a couple months, with barely no indication in the text he increases to Vader level skill, strength and speed just "cuz".
It makes no sense, I'm sorry.
Side Note: Galen's force potential increase is talked about a lot through the Novel. It is then the best measuring stick for Galen's improvement. He talks excessively about his increase in Force Power, while some of his best feats come from earlier in the Novel. So if an increase in force power is so hammered home, and said increase wasn't even close to being as substantial as you say... why does one haphazard mention of an ambiguous increase in skill bring him from Sub Kas'im level to Vader level again?