I do just fine. Unfortunately I don't think the same can be said for you given I've already explained this concept to you multiple times in regards to the form Anakin was using before he switched to Djem So and his performance against Dooku then.
But as I said you don't seem to be capable of grasping such concepts and so I'll leave others to butt their heads against a wall. 🙂
Originally posted by Syndicate
I do just fine. Unfortunately I don't think the same can be said for you given I've already explained this concept to you multiple times in regards to the form Anakin was using before he switched to Djem So and his performance against Dooku then.But as I said you don't seem to be capable of grasping such concepts and so I'll leave others to butt their heads against a wall. 🙂
Urrmm you've not explained any concept. I'm surprised you even know the word "concept". You just keep ramming the same line over and over, ignoring half of it, and ignoring it's contextual place in the passage.
Used to go over the same shit with Marco, who like you just kept quoting that same line devoid of any context like you do, and use it to prove Maul would take Dooku and Skywalker 😂
It's honestly like talking to a brick wall.
Originally posted by Syndicate👆
I do just fine. Unfortunately I don't think the same can be said for you given I've already explained this concept to you multiple times in regards to the form Anakin was using before he switched to Djem So and his performance against Dooku then.But as I said you don't seem to be capable of grasping such concepts and so I'll leave others to butt their heads against a wall. 🙂
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Line-edited and approved by Lucas, and also reflected in TCW, so not quite. 😉
I'm not certain if the information regarding the "line-editing" and "approval" are correct, but as the novel was released before the movie, I daresay it doesn't represent Lucas' final vision for the story, which is to be seen in the film. Where Dooku dominates Anakin and Kenobi up to the point where he himself taunts Anakin to use the Dark Side. Which happens, just to point that out, during a rather long saber-lock in which Anakin absolutely doesn't overpower Dooku.
And as I explained to Thor, blocks nonetheless make up a significant aspect of his saber defence, you need only observe a duel involving Dooku to see that he does not always deflect his opponents attacks.
Well. I don't know what you would label "block". To me a block is accepting the entire power of an opponents attack by just moving your own blade against it. Dooku usually moves his blade into enemy attack at an angle, diverting the power of the strike to a side...
Furthermore even when it comes to deflection, there is some manner of meeting your opponent involved, so it stands to reason that if blocks unfeasible for him, turning away his opponents blade would pose some difficulty as well.
...which requires far less strength, as you don't need to "catch" the blow of your opponent with equal power. You are just meeting a fraction of the power he put into a swing. That is why Dooku's blade usually makes contact with enemy blade for such a small amount of time and he kind of keeps "spinning" it sidewards.
He doesn't, at least not legitimately, but I suppose we can pretend. On the other hand he visibly struggles to block Anakin's attacks as early as TCW S4:
Except he doesn't always do that:
10:29 - one-handed saberlock against Anakin
10:44 - again one-handed saberlock against Anakin after blocking brutal overhead slashes from him
11:20 - another one-handed saberlock against Anakin
13:40 - probably Dooku's best fight in TCW. He totally dominates Kenobi and Skywalker
13:49 - pushing Anakin back from a saberlock with physical strength (one handed)
13:52 - again pushing Anakin back
As if lightsaber duels make much sense from a real-world standpoint at all, an element of suspension of disbelief must be employed. Regardless surely the mass would be generated by the strength of the wielder?
Yes to the suspension of disbelive. No to the mass, though.
Yoda is evidently strong, but there is little evidence to suggest he applies that strength significantly in combat. In fact his speed rather than strength oriented form and distinct lack of leverage (something in turn Dooku was accomplished at using against his opponents) consequence of his stature would suggest otherwise. As would the fact he failed to overpower Yoda as Anakin did.
Well. He casually breaks the (very short) saberlocks with Dooku during their fight in AotC, where Anakin - right before Dooku taunts him in RotS - goes through a rather long saberlock witht the Sith Lord, apparently without being capable of physically overpowering him. And that despite Anakin having a mechanical arm that enables him to easily hold the weight of himself, Palpatine and Obi-Wan. And this was still Yoda holding back against Dooku whom he didn't want to kill, much like Dooku - kind of - held back against Anakin because he was commanded to lose to him.
I consider it very well possible, that even after taunting Anakin into utilizing the Dark Side, Dooku would still have been able to win the fight, if he had - as usual - utilized his command of the Force in order to control / take out Anakin.
Originally posted by Syndicate
You can't even come up with your own lines? Jeez.
Lol @ that being someone's line. It's a pretty common and old saying Lmao.
Anyway given I'm the one whose given rebuttals while you just keep quoting the same line over and over, devoid of the correct context, I think it's pretty clear whose the brick wall.
Originally posted by NaiIt was based off of the script, and by the time the book had been released I'm sure the film had long since finished production. Regardless we don't need to speculate, Stover himself made it quite clear:
I'm not certain if the information regarding the "line-editing" and "approval" are correct, but as the novel was released before the movie, I daresay it doesn't represent Lucas' final vision for the story, which is to be seen in the film.
Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.On top of that we have this statement from Lucasfilm:What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.
Period.
When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves--and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.Evidently much of the novel has been since retconned, but the source as a whole remains rather reliable.
Where Dooku dominates Anakin and Kenobi up to the point where he himself taunts Anakin to use the Dark Side. Which happens, just to point that out, during a rather long saber-lock in which Anakin absolutely doesn't overpower Dooku.Dominate is rather a strong word friend, and hardly what Dooku was doing. And while its not pronounced there are several instances in which Anakin smashes through Dooku's defences nonetheless, and when Anakin decides to he breaks that saber lock he does so rather easily, not that pushing your blades against one another has much to do with form.
Well. I don't know what you would label "block". To me a block is accepting the entire power of an opponents attack by just moving your own blade against it. Dooku usually moves his blade into enemy attack at an angle, diverting the power of the strike to a side...Often but not always, I needn't explain this to you when you've raised several examples yourself.
...which requires far less strength, as you don't need to "catch" the blow of your opponent with equal power. You are just meeting a fraction of the power he put into a swing. That is why Dooku's blade usually makes contact with enemy blade for such a small amount of time and he kind of keeps "spinning" it sidewards.Which I don't deny, but within the contexts of the RotS novel, parrying Anakin's strikes is described as incredibly taxing nonetheless.
Except he doesn't always do that:Not consistently no, but its purposeless to cherry pick certain instances when ignoring others, especially when its ultimately reliant on reading into choreography. Fact is Dooku repeatedly struggles to block Anakin's attacks, and yet the same is not the case for other adversaries Anakin has faced, nor Vader for that matter. Likewise it is Dooku and Dooku alone who Savage ends up putting on his ass. Evidently therefore, he possesses shortcomings in this department where others do not, however as the evidence you've raised suggests, they are far from damning weaknesses.10:29 - one-handed saberlock against Anakin
10:44 - again one-handed saberlock against Anakin after blocking brutal overhead slashes from him
11:20 - another one-handed saberlock against Anakin
[b]13:40 - probably Dooku's best fight in TCW. He totally dominates Kenobi and Skywalker
13:49 - pushing Anakin back from a saberlock with physical strength (one handed)
13:52 - again pushing Anakin back[/b]
Yes to the suspension of disbelive. No to the mass, though.Fair enough.
Well. He casually breaks the (very short) saberlocks with Dooku during their fight in AotC, where Anakin - right before Dooku taunts him in RotS - goes through a rather long saberlock witht the Sith Lord, apparently without being capable of physically overpowering him. And that despite Anakin having a mechanical arm that enables him to easily hold the weight of himself, Palpatine and Obi-Wan. And this was still Yoda holding back against Dooku whom he didn't want to kill, much like Dooku - kind of - held back against Anakin because he was commanded to lose to him.Again I'm not convinced saber locks are very much a display of form as opposed to pure strength, in which Dooku is not lacking, though regardless once again Anakin breaks out of that lock when he decides he wants to.
Regardless is there any evidence that suggests Yoda was holding back against Dooku? Neither the text nor the film would seem to support that interpretation.
I consider it very well possible, that even after taunting Anakin into utilizing the Dark Side, Dooku would still have been able to win the fight, if he had - as usual - utilized his command of the Force in order to control / take out Anakin.Potentially, though I imagine at such a stage he would have just shrugged it off. But that's not relevant to this discussion.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It was based off of the script, and by the time the book had been released I'm sure the film had long since finished production. Regardless we don't need to speculate, Stover himself made it quite clear😮n top of that we have this statement from Lucasfilm:Evidently much of the novel has been since retconned, but the source as a whole remains rather reliable.
My point was, that the movie is still overwriting the novel, generally speaking. And some stuff in the novel seems so obviously against the movie, that one wonders, how it made it through all the editing.
Dominate is rather a strong word friend, and hardly what Dooku was doing. And while its not pronounced there are several instances in which Anakin smashes through Dooku's defences nonetheless, and when Anakin decides to he breaks that saber lock he does so rather easily, not that pushing your blades against one another has much to do with form.
Dominating was exactly what Dooku was doing. He seperated the two Jedi, then totally destroyed them when he removes Kenobi from the fight. Had he wanted to win that fight, he could just have taken down Skywalker instead of wasting time, by dropping the metal part on an already unconscious Kenobi. At that point, Dooku was the sole winner of that engagement and he merely allowed Anakin to make a comeback.
And pushing your blades against one another doesn't have to do much with form. It does have to do much with strength, though, which was what we were debating.
Often but not always, I needn't explain this to you when you've raised several examples yourself.
Yes. The point is: He has other options, so if he knows an opponent is "too strong" for him, he could simply utilize those other options. He easily evades Opress for example in their little confrontation and does the same to Ventress (when not even having a lightsaber) and there is of course the redirection of strike. So why would he even attempt to meet Anakin head-on?
Which I don't deny, but within the contexts of the RotS novel, parrying Anakin's strikes is described as incredibly taxing nonetheless.Not consistently no, but its purposeless to cherry pick certain instances when ignoring others, especially when its ultimately reliant on reading into choreography. Fact is Dooku repeatedly struggles to block Anakin's attacks, and yet the same is not the case for other adversaries Anakin has faced, nor Vader for that matter.
The RotS novel is a completely ridiculous source to utilize here, because it doesn't describe what we see on screen, where Dooku is doing fine until taking Kenobi out, then gets the comeback from Anakin, engages him a saberlock and then keeps deflecting Anakin's assault (one handed) before Anakin grabs his arms and cut his hands off. I don't see much "struggling" with Anakin's strength there.
And, pray tell, what other opponents are we talking about? Savage?
Likewise it is Dooku and Dooku alone who Savage ends up putting on his ass. Evidently therefore, he possesses shortcomings in this department where others do not, however as the evidence you've raised suggests, they are far from damning weaknesses.
Urm. You are wrong here. Savage physically overpowers Anakin and Obi-Wan as well. Twice. Once on Toydaria and then again, just after Dooku escapes from the instance you have mentioned, when he nigh simultaneously bashes both Jedi out of a room into the next corridor wall.
Again I'm not convinced saber locks are very much a display of form as opposed to pure strength, in which Dooku is not lacking, though regardless once again Anakin breaks out of that lock when he decides he wants to.
Since we are arguing strength, that was the point. I mean, what else are we discussing? When Anakin is, as you suggest, "too strong" for Dooku (or his form is) than there must be a lack of strength on the opposite site (or in the opposite form). But then, one would expect that "the ultimate refinement of lightsaber to lightsaber combat" doesn't have such an intrinsic weakness and Dooku's displays of (force aided) strength and the description of his general physical condition ("man half his age"😉 suggest, that he also doesn't lack in the strength department. So?
Regardless is there any evidence that suggests Yoda was holding back against Dooku?
Well. At the least he sees capturing Dooku as his goal, neither "stopping" nor "killing" the Sith Lord:
"Capture Dooku, we must," Yoda said, his calm and steady voice as strong an anchor as Mace could have asked for in that momentous moment. - AotC Novelization.
And I find the description of their fight in the novel rather interesting:
But one that never got close to hitting. With hardly a movement, Yoda turned the blade aside.
Dooku went into a wild flurry then, the likes of which he had not shown against Obi-Wan or Anakin, raining blows at the diminutive Master. But Yoda didn't even seem to move. He didn't step back or to the side, yet his subtle dodges and precision parries kept Dooku's blade slashing and stabbing harmlessly wide.
It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow, and the Count, recognizing the Futility of this attempt to overwhelm, stepped back fast.
[...]
With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through.
[...]
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.
[...]
Yoda's green blade caught the blow, holding the red lightsaber at bay, locking the two in a contest of strength, physical and of the Force.
"Fought well, you have, my old Padawan," Yoda congratulated, and his lightsaber began to move out, just a bit, forcing Dooku back.
[...]
"Anakin!" Obi-Wan cried. He grabbed at the plummeting crane with the Force, and Anakin, startled awake, did so, as well. Even working together, they hadn't the strength left to stop its crushing descent.
But Yoda did.
- AotC Novelization.
Apparently Dooku was utilizing reserves against Yoda that he didn't need against Obi-Wan and Anakin, both in terms of his duelling abilities and in terms of the Force and still Yoda pretty much dominates him through the fight, partitially even with apparent ease.
Neither the text nor the film would seem to support that interpretation.
I think "Dark Rendezvous" does, but I haven't read over years and don't have my copy at hand atm.
Potentially, though I imagine at such a stage he would have just shrugged it off. But that's not relevant to this discussion.
Well. Technically speaking, this entire discussion is irrelevant, as Yoda would just roflstomp any version of Anakin from RotS. 😉