Originally posted by light889
WW is able to keep up with Both Superman and Darkseid in combat just fine as we have seen in multiple battles. They are far from too fast for her to react and tag. Since scaling is so important. WW also tages Cheetah constantly. Who can also tag Superman and Flash. And has been said to be near Flash speed. In fact WW has been said to have better reflexes than SM. So 2 can play this game.
😆 No. Wonder Woman has not kept up with Superman actually using his speed. I literally showed him moving far too fast for her to see, yet she's able to keep up with his speed? This is a circular argument. The reality is Superman isn't actually using his speed, or at least not seriously.
She can tag Flash? When has that happened under normal circumstances? Here she only manages to hit him because the Starro infection makes him move in a predictable pattern.
https://ibb.co/GRXCNYH
https://ibb.co/8XHK35P
https://ibb.co/j6xwYfW
https://ibb.co/bsdcHC6
Or, ya know, she lost a race to Flash when he ran backwards.
https://ibb.co/TThQQvX
https://ibb.co/f1xww4L
She's also failed against slower Speed Force users.
And what tagging of Darkseid and proof he was using his speed? And if you're thinking Post-FLASHPOINT, learn to read. Not valid here.
Originally posted by h1a8
But you don't have the right according to forum rules. You are not allowed to create a thread for bait purposes.
You are basically baiting supporters of WW while believing this is a stomp in favor of Orion
Are you drunk? I didn't make a bait thread. I made it to not derail. Are you just so dishonest you won't admit that you lied, or what? Do you actually believe it?
Originally posted by h1a8
You are either trolling or extremely bias.
No, unlike you, I read comics.
Originally posted by h1a8
Here are some facts.
1. Superman fighting someone doesn't prove they have the same speed (or close) in general.
2. You can't use a character's lowest showings against another ones highest showings. You can't just pick and choose. Diana has the speed and reflexes to defend against a lot of Superman's attacks. She has lassoed Zoom when Zoom was operating at metroman perceptions and moving at light speed. Zoom is faster than Superman. WW has nearly 100% blocked light speed attacks. WW has ducked and dodged Superman punches, blocked his hv, etc.
3. There are different levels of superspeed. For example, bullets peed is superspeed. But bulletspeed is a statue to WW. Therefore showing Orion is faster than a human doesn't prove he is as fast as WW or even close.Orion is not even considered a speedster more than 90% of the time.
He has no quantifiable feats that can match WW. He has no defense against the lasso (prove me wrong).
1: What the f uck is the point of this? Are you trying to use this straw grasping to argue Darkseid isn't that fast? I don't think you even read scans posted, let alone comics. It wasn't Superman fighting someone. Darkseid moved so fast that SUPERMAN DIDN'T EVEN SEE HIM MOVE. There is a huge difference between the two. This was Byrne era, but then canon wise that Superman moving faster than she can see should take place a bit before the Darkseid example.
2: How are you not doing what you're accusing me of? And where have I used someone's highest showing against someone's lowest showing? I have not posted low showings for Wonder Woman, I'd use her fighting Deathstroke or some other example and go "look how slow she ks" if I was doing what you accused me of. Darkseid moving that fast is one of the few speed examples he has I'm aware of. And I'm talking actual speed usage, not assumed because it fits your argument needs. Superman explicitly notes Darkseid moved too fast to see.
Considering Superman's feats, no, Wonder Woman does not have the speed to deal with Superman actually utilizing his feats. Your argument for Zoom is similar to what you're accusing me of. You're arguing Zoom is faster than Superman. I'm going to guess you've argued he's faster than Flash, since, well he was. Yet a blind Wonder Woman lassoed him. Wouldn't this fall under PIS to you if it weren't something you desperately needed to argue for her being above Orion? Honestly I think the Zoom fight is just one of many examples of his stock taking a massive dive, but let's assume it's not. Well if Zoom is faster than Flash, how is this not PIS by your standards that she lassoed him while blind? I posted how she lost a race against Wally running backwards and she could only hit Wally because of the Starro virus making him run in a predictable pattern, so she anticipated where he went. That's two examples that already outweighs her lassoing Zoom.
But how about this? Christinna was too fast for Wonder Woman.
And at best she was a match for Jesse Quick in speed. Who Wonder Woman was much slower than. To the point WW needed to cheat to keep up with Jesse. And Diana is the one to use "cheat," not something I'm adding to make it worse.
3: Yeah and Orion is still faster. There's evidence the New Gods in general are like nanosecond perception when Darkseid so casually says Desaad(who doesn't even officially have powers) has a nanosecond.
And it's not like we don't have other New Gods who don't even officially have powers showing super speed. Kanto, prior to taking the name Kanto, fought his predecessor Kanto-13 at super speed.
https://ibb.co/J5c6v6w
https://ibb.co/xDRjP91
https://ibb.co/nDTtCMH
https://ibb.co/fD6bW4H
All the flak Dummy Derrick gives Orion for being hit by Kalibak, and unlike Wonder Woman(to my knowledge, not counting Flash moving in a predictable pattern), Kalibak managed to hit a Speed Force user when he fought Max Mercury. Note Kalibak says Max's speed is less impressive to a god, again supporting at least some degree of super speed is standard amongst them.
https://ibb.co/XsvqW1D
https://ibb.co/KD1HXDV
But when Orion got a beating from an amped Kalibak, he was still able to avoid Kalibak when both were moving at super speed.
First the belt to prove Kalibak was amped.
https://ibb.co/BfLx26B
https://ibb.co/jzB3MND
https://ibb.co/tsy9SjC
Now the fight.
https://ibb.co/CQmRfJS
https://ibb.co/jfyzg1D
https://ibb.co/CzT3k40
https://ibb.co/LvMjwh1
And no, I'm not arguing Kalibak's speed was amped. But his strength being amped is relevant given how hurt Orion was going in overconfident not knowing the amp, still is fast enough to avoid Kalibak. Who actually did something against Max's speed.
And remember I said Christinna seemed on par at best with Jesse Quick and WW was slower than both? Seems Max is faster than Jesse.
https://ibb.co/R4Qn8fq
https://ibb.co/tP8zDNN
Jesse's file puts her way less than Flash while Max at least rivaled him.
Originally posted by Delta1938
😆 No. Wonder Woman has not kept up with Superman actually using his speed. I literally showed him moving far too fast for her to see, yet she's able to keep up with his speed? This is a circular argument. The reality is Superman isn't actually using his speed, or at least not seriously.She can tag Flash? When has that happened under normal circumstances? Here she only manages to hit him because the Starro infection makes him move in a predictable pattern.
https://ibb.co/GRXCNYH
https://ibb.co/8XHK35P
https://ibb.co/j6xwYfW
https://ibb.co/bsdcHC6Or, ya know, she lost a race to Flash when he ran backwards.
https://ibb.co/TThQQvX
https://ibb.co/f1xww4LShe's also failed against slower Speed Force users.
And what tagging of Darkseid and proof he was using his speed? And if you're thinking Post-FLASHPOINT, learn to read. Not valid here.
Proof that Orion tagged SM while he was using super speed or his top speed? LOL. Diana has kept up with SM in combat just fine all the times she has fought him. She tagges Cheetah who tagges Flash and SM. She tagged Zoom. Supergirl, Powergirl etc. We have speedsters like Flash praising her speed. amazo who she lassoed before he could finish a word praising his speed. Even comics sayins she is faster than thought. Or her shattered God feat.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Are you drunk? I didn't make a bait thread. I made it to not derail. Are you just so dishonest you won't admit that you lied, or what? Do you actually believe it?No, unlike you, I read comics.
1: What the f uck is the point of this? Are you trying to use this straw grasping to argue Darkseid isn't that fast? I don't think you even read scans posted, let alone comics. It wasn't Superman fighting someone. Darkseid moved so fast that SUPERMAN DIDN'T EVEN SEE HIM MOVE. There is a huge difference between the two. This was Byrne era, but then canon wise that Superman moving faster than she can see should take place a bit before the Darkseid example.
2: How are you not doing what you're accusing me of? And where have I used someone's highest showing against someone's lowest showing? I have not posted low showings for Wonder Woman, I'd use her fighting Deathstroke or some other example and go "look how slow she ks" if I was doing what you accused me of. Darkseid moving that fast is one of the few speed examples he has I'm aware of. And I'm talking actual speed usage, not assumed because it fits your argument needs. Superman explicitly notes Darkseid moved too fast to see.
Considering Superman's feats, no, Wonder Woman does not have the speed to deal with Superman actually utilizing his feats. Your argument for Zoom is similar to what you're accusing me of. You're arguing Zoom is faster than Superman. I'm going to guess you've argued he's faster than Flash, since, well he was. Yet a blind Wonder Woman lassoed him. Wouldn't this fall under PIS to you if it weren't something you desperately needed to argue for her being above Orion? Honestly I think the Zoom fight is just one of many examples of his stock taking a massive dive, but let's assume it's not. Well if Zoom is faster than Flash, how is this not PIS by your standards that she lassoed him while blind? I posted how she lost a race against Wally running backwards and she could only hit Wally because of the Starro virus making him run in a predictable pattern, so she anticipated where he went. That's two examples that already outweighs her lassoing Zoom.
But how about this? Christinna was too fast for Wonder Woman.
And at best she was a match for Jesse Quick in speed. Who Wonder Woman was much slower than. To the point WW needed to cheat to keep up with Jesse. And Diana is the one to use "cheat," not something I'm adding to make it worse.
3: Yeah and Orion is still faster. There's evidence the New Gods in general are like nanosecond perception when Darkseid so casually says Desaad(who doesn't even officially have powers) has a nanosecond.
And it's not like we don't have other New Gods who don't even officially have powers showing super speed. Kanto, prior to taking the name Kanto, fought his predecessor Kanto-13 at super speed.
https://ibb.co/J5c6v6w
https://ibb.co/xDRjP91
https://ibb.co/nDTtCMH
https://ibb.co/fD6bW4HAll the flak Dummy Derrick gives Orion for being hit by Kalibak, and unlike Wonder Woman(to my knowledge, not counting Flash moving in a predictable pattern), Kalibak managed to hit a Speed Force user when he fought Max Mercury. Note Kalibak says Max's speed is less impressive to a god, again supporting at least some degree of super speed is standard amongst them.
https://ibb.co/XsvqW1D
https://ibb.co/KD1HXDVBut when Orion got a beating from an amped Kalibak, he was still able to avoid Kalibak when both were moving at super speed.
First the belt to prove Kalibak was amped.
https://ibb.co/BfLx26B
https://ibb.co/jzB3MND
https://ibb.co/tsy9SjCNow the fight.
https://ibb.co/CQmRfJS
https://ibb.co/jfyzg1D
https://ibb.co/CzT3k40
https://ibb.co/LvMjwh1And no, I'm not arguing Kalibak's speed was amped. But his strength being amped is relevant given how hurt Orion was going in overconfident not knowing the amp, still is fast enough to avoid Kalibak. Who actually did something against Max's speed.
And remember I said Christinna seemed on par at best with Jesse Quick and WW was slower than both? Seems Max is faster than Jesse.
https://ibb.co/R4Qn8fq
https://ibb.co/tP8zDNNJesse's file puts her way less than Flash while Max at least rivaled him.
Comics contradict other comics. Your argument assumes they don't. You can't prove EXACTLY how fast someone is solely based off who they fought.
Superman can operate with less than bulletspeed up to many times faster than light from comic to comic (and sometimes from scene to scene).
To prove my point then how do you explain why WW is sometimes able to dodge Superman's attacks at times and hit him before he can respond?
One scene that contradict all others isn't valid. Superman can't move faster than WW can see. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to block and dodge his attacks at times or strike Superman before he can defend.
Bottomline: Orion (at his fastest) moves much slower than the speed of light. WW would easily perceive his movements and defend. She will land a blow stunning him and lassoing him while he is stunned ftw.
Originally posted by light889
Proof that Orion tagged SM while he was using super speed or his top speed? LOL. Diana has kept up with SM in combat just fine all the times she has fought him. She tagges Cheetah who tagges Flash and SM. She tagged Zoom. Supergirl, Powergirl etc. We have speedsters like Flash praising her speed. amazo who she lassoed before he could finish a word praising his speed. Even comics sayins she is faster than thought. Or her shattered God feat.
Why are you demanding proof for something I didn't say? Oh a strawman. Or you're just retarded. Wait, you think Wonder Woman tagging Superman not really using his speed is proof she's in his speed league. So you are retarded. The rest is just a bunch of useless dribble. Tagged a Zoom whose stock crashed hard. Supergirl? Prove she was actually using her speed the way you think. Power Girl? Where Power Girl was blitzing her while talking about how PG is AT LEAST as fast as her. Not to mention Power Girl is slower than Superman but somehow hitting Power Girl somehow puts her in Superman's league. Cheetah? Not counting Zoom camping her, what about Cheetah should impress me? Shattered god? I have a hard time buying that as impressive if a normal human was also running away.
And thought isn't that fast in comics.
Originally posted by h1a8
Comics contradict other comics. Your argument assumes they don't. You can't prove EXACTLY how fast someone is solely based off who they fought.
Superman can operate with less than bulletspeed up to many times faster than light from comic to comic (and sometimes from scene to scene).
To prove my point then how do you explain why WW is sometimes able to dodge Superman's attacks at times and hit him before he can respond?One scene that contradict all others isn't valid. Superman can't move faster than WW can see. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to block and dodge his attacks at times or strike Superman before he can defend.
Bottomline: Orion (at his fastest) moves much slower than the speed of light. WW would easily perceive his movements and defend. She will land a blow stunning him and lassoing him while he is stunned ftw.
All I see is you completely ignoring what I posted and hoping the autism you spout is worth a f uck. I'll spoil it for you. It's not worth a f uck.
Originally posted by h1a8Don't waste your time. Delta knows NOTHING about how comics work. WW would tag Orion at will. Only a TROLL would say otherwise.
Comics contradict other comics. Your argument assumes they don't. You can't prove EXACTLY how fast someone is solely based off who they fought.
Superman can operate with less than bulletspeed up to many times faster than light from comic to comic (and sometimes from scene to scene).
To prove my point then how do you explain why WW is sometimes able to dodge Superman's attacks at times and hit him before he can respond?One scene that contradict all others isn't valid. Superman can't move faster than WW can see. Otherwise she wouldn't be able to block and dodge his attacks at times or strike Superman before he can defend.
Bottomline: Orion (at his fastest) moves much slower than the speed of light. WW would easily perceive his movements and defend. She will land a blow stunning him and lassoing him while he is stunned ftw.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Why are you demanding proof for something I didn't say? Oh a strawman. Or you're just retarded. Wait, you think Wonder Woman tagging Superman not really using his speed is proof she's in his speed league. So you are retarded. The rest is just a bunch of useless dribble. Tagged a Zoom whose stock crashed hard. Supergirl? Prove she was actually using her speed the way you think. Power Girl? Where Power Girl was blitzing her while talking about how PG is AT LEAST as fast as her. Not to mention Power Girl is slower than Superman but somehow hitting Power Girl somehow puts her in Superman's league. Cheetah? Not counting Zoom camping her, what about Cheetah should impress me? Shattered god? I have a hard time buying that as impressive if a normal human was also running away.And thought isn't that fast in comics.
You are the one scaling Orion's speed to SM. WW has reacted to SM in all their battles. And yes she has reacted to him using his speed too. PG was blitzed from Diana when Diana was in Canada during that fight. And Diana clearly dominated the fight when she started fighting back more seriously, since she didn't want to fight at first. Sure PG is no superman but she still is super fast. When did a human run away from the shattered God? Diana was literally carring Steve away. He didn't run. Cheetah has tagged Flash, she has moved too fast for both Donna Troy and Supergirl to percieve too. And Zoom never amped Cheetah. He literally said he couldn't do that. He trained her to find her true potential as he noticed Cheetah had a mental block previngt her from becoming as fast as she could be. Even suggesting that since her powers are magic based, there is no reral limit bout how fast she can become. WW has also kept up with Flash and SM multiple times. She even helped them to search around the world looking for white martians. She has helped both SM and Flash perform speedblitz multiple times. She has been called faster than thought for example during one of her annuals. She has blitzed Amazo before he could finish a word etc. Diana has the better speed feats compared to Orion.
Originally posted by light889
You are the one scaling Orion's speed to SM. WW has reacted to SM in all their battles. And yes she has reacted to him using his speed too. PG was blitzed from Diana when Diana was in Canada during that fight. And Diana clearly dominated the fight when she started fighting back more seriously, since she didn't want to fight at first. Sure PG is no superman but she still is super fast. When did a human run away from the shattered God? Diana was literally carring Steve away. He didn't run. Cheetah has tagged Flash, she has moved too fast for both Donna Troy and Supergirl to percieve too. And Zoom never amped Cheetah. He literally said he couldn't do that. He trained her to find her true potential as he noticed Cheetah had a mental block previngt her from becoming as fast as she could be. Even suggesting that since her powers are magic based, there is no reral limit bout how fast she can become. WW has also kept up with Flash and SM multiple times. She even helped them to search around the world looking for white martians. She has helped both SM and Flash perform speedblitz multiple times. She has been called faster than thought for example during one of her annuals. She has blitzed Amazo before he could finish a word etc. Diana has the better speed feats compared to Orion.
For f uck's sake, take a few junior high English classes and learn how to use paragraphs.
I see I am making the mistake of giving your intelligence and reading comprehension too much credit. For this, I apologize.
First, you obviously don't understand one bit my argument. I'm not scaling the way you are. Darkseid explicitly moved faster than Byrne era Superman could even see, and it is this era of his speed I'm using(not later). Clark says this. This is not remotely the same as what you're arguing. When Orion fought Darkseid, the fight was clearly at super speed. So, this is not what you're arguing.
You on the other hand are making the assumption that because Wonder Woman hit Superman thar means her speed is on par. She tagged him when he wasn't taking her seriously in FOR TOMORROW and still he was much faster than her. I could easily point to A LEAGUE OF ONE how once Superman wasn't getting cheap shot he utterly dominated Wonder Woman in speed. Which actually, there wasn't anything indicating speed there. But if I were to use your standards? He embarrassed her casually. So much for her speed and skill together.
So ****ing what on Power Girl? The whole point was a skill feat. Did you read the dialogue or like carter can only look at the pretty pictures? The emphasis on skill coupled with Wonder Woman's statements on PG's speed while literally getting blitzed shows the writer intent that Power Girl was faster but Wonder Woman was able to use skill to compensate. But why are you even arguing this? Superman is faster than Power Girl even if we go with your completely wrong interpretation and has left Power Girl frozen by comparison.
So you're trying to argue Cheetah being taught to be faster than before means she was that fast before Zoom "taught her true power?" Are you trying to use this retroactively?
I don't see how one actual example cited and you just saying random Blitz blah blah blah proves anything, especially when it's a circular argument. Prove that Wonder Woman could keep up with Flash and Superman due to being fast enough, instead of they just weren't going too fast. I showed her being slower than Jesse Quick. Jesse offers to slow down but WW says she's cheating. Yet you think she's actually in Flash's class of speed when she's slower than to my knowledge the slowest Flash Family member?
How about where Superman and Barry left Wonder Woman in their dust and she looked to be a statue in comparison? We have that, and Superman also moving so fast she didn't see him leave and return. But because she ran invisible looking for white Martians and some unspecified helping Blitzes means she's as fast? You are assuming that she could keep up, not they slowed down for her.
And I'll have to look for it on shattered god, remember a normal person avoiding them.
And seriously. Use paragraphs. Be an adult.