Originally posted by zopzop
But even then, Allen was just BARELY ahead of Makkari and Runner. So the (minuscule) speed advantage is meaningless when you take into consideration Runners massive physical stat advantage and mindphucking aura.
And Runner isn't even lightspeed in fact.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Buried alien isn't Barry Allen.And Runner isn't even lightspeed in fact.
The galactic race was a foot race and nothing more. It had specific rules.
Originally posted by zopzop
Runner is FTL. This being travels the universe under his own power. If he was < FTL it would take him over 100,000 light years to cross an average sized galaxy.The galactic race was a foot race and nothing more. It had specific rules.
Yes, which is why he isn't lightspeed. He also couldn't escape a black hole.
Runner wins...
When debating we look at all showings...
Runner has one truly low showing; being tripped by Mantis (which hardly constitues a loss)...
The rest of his combat showings are pretty strong...
Pre Crisis Barry Allen has many lows...
On average Runner is greater than Barry Allen...
Runner wins...
Originally posted by abhilegend
Eh, what? He was turned ghostly by Ghost Ace but everything else was just him with the speed and striking power.
...You cannot be serious. The ghostly powers are what enabled him to battle the Spectre in the first place. Spectre explicitly mentioned that. And it was established before that story that any phantom being is on the same level as the Spectre.
"Striking power"? Well, let's ignore the fact that his phantom powers enabled him to grow to mountain size firstly, and his ghostly powers are what let him to battle Spectre's astral self.
This is what happened to Barry when he lost his amp:
FYI, This is "regular" Barry's striking power (against a random thug not even a street level villain) 😂
Why you think Barry could even hold his own against the spectre or that his blows would have any effect is beyond me.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah and Runner got tripped over by Mantis. Wally has himself got beaten by these rogues and at one point couldn't dodge four boomerangs. Under Geoff Johns no less.
PC Barry was once KO'd by a piece of paper thrown at him, literally (not even kidding).
And yeah, of course Wally was also beaten by his rogue gallery but he also had some pretty crazy showings which PC Barry never had.
Originally posted by abhilegend
And I gave him the win because he was legitimately a feat monster. Him just containing the anti matter cannon of Anti Monitor shits on anything Runner has done.Wally tried that and failed BTW.
Wally failed to contain the cannon because at the time his powers were in a mess. And that's actually advantage Barry had; he could literally shift his molecules to whatever he liked, and I even recall an instance where he changed them into anti-matter (though nothing of the sort was mentioned in the AM instance but we could presume), so naturally he is gonna do better than Wally - who didn't have that ability, and whose powers were in a mess - in containing the AM canon. That doesn't mean he's more powerful than Wally though. But that's beside the point anyway.
You also have to take into account that Barry appeared in a much larger amount of comics than the Runner so taking his highest feat is not exactly fair, but I think comparing them is pointless anyway since Gruenwald's perception of top speed (for any physical object) is light speed just like irl.
Originally posted by abhilegend
10 times the speed of light? Are you kidding me?
Not in the slightest.
On panel:
Editorial confirmation 43 issues later:
The editor confirmed despite the fact that a few issues earlier Flash was able to cross the galaxy in a week (which is much greater than 10 times FTL); that tells you even though Flash could on occasions go greater than that, it is still his average top speed according to the writer's intentions and backed up by many encounters and instances. Just like I said in my original post.
Originally posted by operator616
...You cannot be serious. The ghostly powers are what enabled him to battle the Spectre in the first place. Spectre explicitly mentioned that. And it was established before that story that any phantom being is on the same level as the Spectre.
Yes I'm serious. The ghostly power allowed him to touch Spectre but his striking power wasn't increased.
I'd like to see where it was mentioned that every phantom being is equal to Spectre somehow.
"Striking power"? Well, let's ignore the fact that his phantom powers enabled him to grow to mountain size firstly, and his ghostly powers are what let him to battle Spectre's astral self.
Yes, which didn't somehow increase his striking power.
This is what happened to Barry when he lost his amp:
Yes, he was unable to run in space. We knew that already.
FYI, This is "regular" Barry's striking power (against a random thug not even a street level villain) 😂
Yes, low showings happened in silver age. On the other hand his normal punches were able to hurt Superman.
I'm sure you can find a lot of low showings for Superman as well.
Why you think Barry could even hold his own against the spectre or that his blows would have any effect is beyond me.
facepalm
PC Barry was once KO'd by a piece of paper thrown at him, literally (not even kidding).
And he survived several attacks from a pre crisis Kryptonian before he was punched in Earth's orbit.
Shit happens like that in comics.
And yeah, of course Wally was also beaten by his rogue gallery but he also had some pretty crazy showings which PC Barry never had.
😂
You sure you've read the correct Flash comics? Barry was ****ing broken in those days.
Wally failed to contain the cannon because at the time his powers were in a mess.
No, because he didn't have the skills of Barry Allen to stop the cannon.
And that's actually advantage Barry had; he could literally shift his molecules to whatever he liked, and I even recall an instance where he changed them into anti-matter (though nothing of the sort was mentioned in the AM instance but we could presume), so naturally he is gonna do better than Wally - who didn't have that ability, and whose powers were in a mess - in containing the AM canon. That doesn't mean he's more powerful than Wally though. But that's beside the point anyway.
Those are a lot of excuses. And no, Wally's powers were not in a mess. In the same comic he destroyed Anti-Monitor's armor when every hero on earth couldn't do it.
It just shows Barry was more skilled than Wally who admitted as such too.
You also have to take into account that Barry appeared in a much larger amount of comics than the Runner so taking his highest feat is not exactly fair, but I think comparing them is pointless anyway since Gruenwald's perception of top speed (for any physical object) is light speed just like irl.
He failed to escape from a black hole in Englehart's run as well.
Not in the slightest.On panel:
Editorial confirmation 43 issues later:
The editor confirmed despite the fact that a few issues earlier Flash was able to cross the galaxy in a week (which is much greater than 10 times FTL); that tells you even though Flash could on occasions go greater than that, it is still his average top speed according to the writer's intentions and backed up by many encounters and instances. Just like I said in my original post.
Yes, silver age was inconsistent like that. Still much faster than that slowpoke Runner who has never gone even lightspeed in a fight.
And no, its not his average speed. Not even close.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes I'm serious. The ghostly power allowed him to touch Spectre but his striking power wasn't increased.I'd like to see where it was mentioned that every phantom being is equal to Spectre somehow.
Yes, which didn't somehow increase his striking power.
Here is the spectre being overrun by phantom beings who could harm him:
http://imgur.com/CCfw9OI
http://imgur.com/cXVAUgJ
http://imgur.com/SsybMfR
Here is the part where it's mentioned that they are almost equal to him in power:
Here is another instance where it's mentioned discarnate objects can harm/destroy him:
And this is the sole reason why Phantom Flash was able to hurt the Spectre, stated on panel:
http://imgur.com/r6n0ZOa
http://imgur.com/fikWu85
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, low showings happened in silver age. On the other hand his normal punches were able to hurt Superman.I'm sure you can find a lot of low showings for Superman as well.
This has nothing to do with low balling, rather, determining the average. But whatever.
Your instance is unusable anyway because the magician was absorbing Superman's power, who himself said that regular blows wouldn't even tickle him, but believe what you wish.
Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalmAnd he survived several attacks from a pre crisis Kryptonian before he was punched in Earth's orbit.
Shit happens like that in comics.
It's funny because I'm the one who should be facepalming you for making such absurd statements, but id rather not and keep it respectful.
His durability is shit tier. He regularly gets KOed by slipping and getting knocked out on the ground, gets KOed by a boomerang, gets KOed by thugs from behind quite frequently, going through a glass window could have killed him, Big Sir punched his face so hard that it became unrecognizable. The only reaon why he can survive superhuman encounters is because of his invisible protective aura which can be burnt out at a certain amount of heat (not too much; forgot how much exactly but this tells you that it limits aren't that high).
Putting Barry on a physical level close to superman or being able to harm the Spectre is laughable to say the least, and you know it. So stop this already.
Originally posted by abhilegend
😂You sure you've read the correct Flash comics? Barry was ****ing broken in those days.
I could lol too, but you are so ignorant to the point that it isn't even funny.
Originally posted by abhilegend
No, because he didn't have the skills of Barry Allen to stop the cannon.Those are a lot of excuses. And no, Wally's powers were not in a mess. In the same comic he destroyed Anti-Monitor's armor when every hero on earth couldn't do it.
It just shows Barry was more skilled than Wally who admitted as such too.
Unlike you, I don't just make shit up. It was stated on panel in the AM instance itself and it was a problem Wally was dealing with for a while, not that you'd know about it of course. Let me know if you want the scans.
Every time he goes through an object it instantly explodes. So yes, his powers were definitely in a mess. And Wally didn't have the ability to convert his molecules into anti matter like Barry did. That gives Barry an advantage in this case.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, silver age was inconsistent like that. Still much faster than that slowpoke Runner who has never gone even lightspeed in a fight.And no, its not his average speed. Not even close.
Like I said comparing them is meaningless for reasons ive already stated and I could care less.
From an objective point of view yes it is. From a subjective/bias-Abhi point of view, it isn't I guess.
Originally posted by operator616
Pre Crisis Barry cannot even breathe in outer space, lol, much less beat the freakin' Spectre. He was amped in their encounter with phantom powers. In the PC days anyone who's a ghost/phantom is in effect a universal power (much like the spectre). Hence why he was able to challenge the Spectre.In fact, PC Barry was actually legitimately weaker than his post crisis self or Wally for that matter; he was beaten by his rogue gallery pretty regularly. And these include the likes of Captain Boomerang, or the Top, or Yorkin (all street level btw), hell, even regular normal thugs have tagged and beaten Barry physically but since this is a Pre-Crisis character we must give him the auto-win I guess.
And when did he run to the end of the universe in [B]zero time
btw? (I hope you're not referring to his encounter with Superman?). in his PC days he was always given the limit that he can travel 10 times the speed of light but broke that number on a number of occasions but that was still his average and limit most of the time. [/B]
👆
Originally posted by operator616
Here is the spectre being overrun by phantom beings who could harm him:http://imgur.com/CCfw9OI
http://imgur.com/cXVAUgJ
http://imgur.com/SsybMfRHere is the part where it's mentioned that they are almost equal to him in power:
Here is another instance where it's mentioned discarnate objects can harm/destroy him:
And this is the sole reason why Phantom Flash was able to hurt the Spectre, stated on panel:
http://imgur.com/r6n0ZOa
http://imgur.com/fikWu85This has nothing to do with low balling, rather, determining the average. But whatever.
Your instance is unusable anyway because the magician was absorbing Superman's power, who himself said that regular blows wouldn't even tickle him, but believe what you wish.
It's funny because I'm the one who should be facepalming you for making such absurd statements, but id rather not and keep it respectful.
His durability is shit tier. He regularly gets KOed by slipping and getting knocked out on the ground, gets KOed by a boomerang, gets KOed by thugs from behind quite frequently, going through a glass window could have killed him, Big Sir punched his face so hard that it became unrecognizable. The only reaon why he can survive superhuman encounters is because of his invisible protective aura which can be burnt out at a certain amount of heat (not too much; forgot how much exactly but this tells you that it limits aren't that high).
Putting Barry on a physical level close to superman or being able to harm the Spectre is laughable to say the least, and you know it. So stop this already.
I could lol too, but you are so ignorant to the point that it isn't even funny.
Unlike you, I don't just make shit up. It was stated on panel in the AM instance itself and it was a problem Wally was dealing with for a while, not that you'd know about it of course. Let me know if you want the scans.
Every time he goes through an object it instantly explodes. So yes, his powers were definitely in a mess. And Wally didn't have the ability to convert his molecules into anti matter like Barry did. That gives Barry an advantage in this case.
Like I said comparing them is meaningless for reasons ive already stated and I could care less.
From an objective point of view yes it is. From a subjective/bias-Abhi point of view, it isn't I guess.
This is complete ownage.
Originally posted by operator616
Here is the spectre being overrun by phantom beings who could harm him:http://imgur.com/CCfw9OI
http://imgur.com/cXVAUgJ
http://imgur.com/SsybMfRHere is the part where it's mentioned that they are almost equal to him in power:
Here is another instance where it's mentioned discarnate objects can harm/destroy him:
And this is the sole reason why Phantom Flash was able to hurt the Spectre, stated on panel:
facepalm
The scan flat out says because Flash is non physical, he can hit Spectre and harm him. His speed and striking power isn't amped.
Drop the condescending tone.
This has nothing to do with low balling, rather, determining the average. But whatever.
Yes, because you're not going entirely from average showings, eh?
GTFO.
Your instance is unusable anyway because the magician was absorbing Superman's power, who himself said that regular blows wouldn't even tickle him, but believe what you wish.
Hahaha yeah, that's what made him hurt Superman when Superman just tanked Hal's attacks just fine a few pages later.
But Superman was human level, right?
It's funny because I'm the one who should be facepalming you for making such absurd statements, but id rather not and keep it respectful.
Haha, this is respectful?
And go ahead, seeing how you're already being a condescending know it all.
His durability is shit tier. He regularly gets KOed by slipping and getting knocked out on the ground, gets KOed by a boomerang, gets KOed by thugs from behind quite frequently, going through a glass window could have killed him, Big Sir punched his face so hard that it became unrecognizable. The only reaon why he can survive superhuman encounters is because of his invisible protective aura which can be burnt out at a certain amount of heat (not too much; forgot how much exactly but this tells you that it limits aren't that high).
Yes, you could replace any Flash there. Silver Age was inconsistent like that.
Look at how Slade is able to beat Flashes even today.
You sure are not lowballing there. No sir.
Putting Barry on a physical level close to superman or being able to harm the Spectre is laughable to say the least, and you know it. So stop this already.
Nobody said Flash was Superman level. Him being able to punch hard enough to alter a planet's orbit us all him though.
I could lol too, but you are so ignorant to the point that it isn't even funny.
Definitely "respectful."
Should I be impressed with your complete knowledge of every character ever?
Unlike you, I don't just make shit up. It was stated on panel in the AM instance itself and it was a problem Wally was dealing with for a while, not that you'd know about it of course. Let me know if you want the scans.
Ah yes, you never make shit up.
The only difference was that Wally's vibrations made things blow up while Barry was skilled enough to contain entire explosion.
What a low feat, right?
And yes, do enlighten me about how Wally was so depowered at that time. I need a good laugh.
Every time he goes through an object it instantly explodes. So yes, his powers were definitely in a mess. And Wally didn't have the ability to convert his molecules into anti matter like Barry did. That gives Barry an advantage in this case.
Yes, that was the situation for years. It wasn't a new development.
And Barry didn't turn into anti matter to contain the anti matter cannon. Now who is making shit up, eh?
Like I said comparing them is meaningless for reasons ive already stated and I could care less.
I don't give a shit about what you think as well.
Like minded, eh?
From an objective point of view yes it is. From a subjective/bias-Abhi point of view, it isn't I guess.
Yeah, you're just the most non biased poster out there and a complete Saint.
Color me unimpressed.
Originally posted by abhilegend
facepalmThe scan flat out says because Flash is non physical, he can hit Spectre and harm him. His speed and striking power isn't amped.
Drop the condescending tone.
Ok. As if it wasn't already obvious enough....
Will you shut up now?
Originally posted by abhilegend
Hahaha yeah, that's what made him hurt Superman when Superman just tanked Hal's attacks just fine a few pages later.But Superman was human level, right?
That's great but you do realize that Hal was depowered in the early-mid 70s, right? The guardians reduced his power level by a significant amount, then renewed him and ultimately gave him a new more powerful ring in '76.
Also, let's ignore the fact that the magician was absorbing their power. And Superman outright saying that his blows regularly wouldn't hurt him. Leaving out context as usual.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, this is respectful?And go ahead, seeing how you're already being a condescending know it all.
I started off as respectful. You're the one who started being condescending.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, you could replace any Flash there. Silver Age was inconsistent like that.Look at how Slade is able to beat Flashes even today.
You sure are not lowballing there. No sir.
The silver age may have been inconsistent a bit, but bronze age wasn't. Half of these are from the bronze age.
And I like how your main excuse is basically "Umm, yes, this was pre-Crisis which was very inconsistent". The difference between Pre-Crisis and post-Crisis inconsistency isn't that much tbh. It's not like Barry is defeating Spectre one day and losing to a thug on another, stop portraying it as such. You're overblowing it. Flash was never able to hurt anybody on Spectre's level or anyone even close to that. His average portrayal is him having trouble dealing with one of his shitty rogues and that's it.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Nobody said Flash was Superman level. Him being able to punch hard enough to alter a planet's orbit us all him though.
Already sealed this part of the debate. But lol at you believing the flash's strength being anywhere near this level. The ignorance here is simply ridiculous.
Originally posted by abhilegend
The only difference was that Wally's vibrations made things blow up while Barry was skilled enough to contain entire explosion.What a low feat, right?
And yes, do enlighten me about how Wally was so depowered at that time. I need a good laugh.
Yes, that was the situation for years. It wasn't a new development.
And Barry didn't turn into anti matter to contain the anti matter cannon. Now who is making shit up, eh?
When did I say that Wally was depowered, exactly? I said that his powers were in a mess ever since he came back from the SF for the 1st time. Which is the sole reason attributed to his failure in containing the canon.
Outright stated on panel.
And I never said it was a low feat, stop putting words in my mouth already.
Fair enough. But he had better control over his molecules than Wally, that's my point. Anyway, arguing over who is more powerful is pointless since there are lots of statements and even editors confirming it that they are on the same level - which is all that matters in the end. Needless to say, this level that they are in is far below anything capable of hurting the Spectre. Unlike Abhi-Flash, that is 😂
Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't give a shit about what you think as well.Like minded, eh?
Lol. You are so caught up in your rage that you're starting to see insults where there are none. When I said I could care less I wasn't referring to you. Just lay back and relax a bit, will you.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah, you're just the most non biased poster out there and a complete Saint.
Thanks. Glad we established that.
Originally posted by operator616
Ok. As if it wasn't already obvious enough....Will you shut up now?
Fair enough.
That's great but you do realize that Hal was depowered in the early-mid 70s, right? The guardians reduced his power level by a significant amount, then renewed him and ultimately gave him a new more powerful ring in '76.
So Hal was depowered to below Flash level who was human level at best, eh?
But I'd like to know the issue number where his power was decreased and restored though.
Also, let's ignore the fact that the magician was absorbing their power. And Superman outright saying that his blows regularly wouldn't hurt him. Leaving out context as usual.
I posted the scans for all to see. And GL failed to hurt him. So as Flash is human level as you've so valiantly proved, Superman and GL must be human level too, right?
I started off as respectful. You're the one who started being condescending.
"No you" is pretty strong argument.
The silver age may have been inconsistent a bit, but bronze age wasn't. Half of these are from the bronze age.
Yes, and Flash wasn't struggling to humans on average in bronze age.
And I like how your main excuse is basically "Umm, yes, this was pre-Crisis which was very inconsistent". The difference between Pre-Crisis and post-Crisis inconsistency isn't that much tbh. It's not like Barry is defeating Spectre one day and losing to a thug on another, stop portraying it as such. You're overblowing it. Flash was never able to hurt anybody on Spectre's level or anyone even close to that. His average portrayal is him having trouble dealing with one of his shitty rogues and that's it.
Haha, seriously? How about Wally destroying Anti-Monitor's armor and then losing to his own rogues?
And no, it wasn't his average to struggle to his rogues.
Already sealed this part of the debate. But lol at you believing the flash's strength being anywhere near this level. The ignorance here is simply ridiculous.
His speed was increased. I already said that.
When did I say that Wally was depowered, exactly? I said that his powers were in a mess ever since he came back from the SF for the 1st time. Which is the sole reason attributed to his failure in containing the canon.And
Outright stated on panel.
And that was happening for years. Trying to paint it as if Wally's powers were in a mess and that's why he failed is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.
And I never said it was a low feat, stop putting words in my mouth already.
B-b-but, he struggles against humans. How can he stop universal anti matter cannon?
Fair enough. But he had better control over his molecules than Wally, that's my point. Anyway, arguing over who is more powerful is pointless since there are lots of statements and even editors confirming it that they are on the same level - which is all that matters in the end. Needless to say, this level that they are in is far below anything capable of hurting the Spectre. Unlike Abhi-Flash, that is
And "Barry stopped it because he can control his molecules or maybe he changed his molecules to anti matter" operator Flash that is.
Except he stopped because he generated more energy than the cannon could handle. And the cannon could handle universal level energies.
http://i.imgur.com/ZW76pcc.jpg
Barry overloaded the cannon and then contained it. Not stopped it due to turning into anti matter.
😂
Lol. You are so caught up in your rage that you're starting to see insults where there are none. When I said I could care less I wasn't referring to you. Just lay back and relax a bit, will you.
And here I thought I was just getting started.
Thanks. Glad we established that.
😂
Sarcasm is definitely not your friend.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So Hal was depowered to below Flash level who was human level at best, eh?But I'd like to know the issue number where his power was decreased and restored though.
No he wasn't. And I never claimed that Flash was human level, the exact opposite in fact. It seems you have trouble comprehending my posts.
He was granted a leave of absence in GL v2 #76; the power reduction was first mentioned in #77 (1970); Hal's series was cancelled in issue #89 and then he started to appear in the Flash comics where his powers did go up a bit again from what I remember. Although he was legitimately back to full power and got a more powerful ring when his series re-surfaced in issue #90 (1976).
Originally posted by abhilegend
I posted the scans for all to see. And GL failed to hurt him. So as Flash is human level as you've so valiantly proved, Superman and GL must be human level too, right?
Just stop, will you? Again:
let's ignore the fact that the magician was absorbing their power. And Superman outright saying that his blows regularly wouldn't hurt him.
Originally posted by abhilegend
"No you" is pretty strong argument.
You know me, I never start hostility unless the other person is being hostile first. You were the one who started being hostile and face palming my posts, which is ironic, because now we both know that I was right all along.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and Flash wasn't struggling to humans on average in bronze age.And no, it wasn't his average to struggle to his rogues.
Yes he was, are you sure you are reading the right comics? I mean, it's pretty weird for you to make such a comment when half of Flash's PC comics focus on him doing exactly that: Fighting one of his rogues. I can't emphasize this enough but his entire PC history goes completely against your comments here.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Haha, seriously? How about Wally destroying Anti-Monitor's armor and then losing to his own rogues?
Yes, seriously, it wasn't that inconsistent, and I dare you to prove me otherwise.
Let's get something straight first: Waid was full of shit in that arc. He had Wally destroy AM's armor with his vibrations yet couldn't do the same to random robots no matter how hard he tried a few issues earlier. I mean, wtf?
But even putting that aside, this was Wally at his absolute peak, this time period in particular was truly different from the others. In the space of a year he acquired three insane feats (the gamblers affair, the black flash, and the AM arc), He wasn't dealing with the rogues at that period, it was all cosmic. Now I know you'll respond with "But you said that his powers were in a mess" - they were, he couldn't control his vibrations, but that doesn't mean his power level was dampened; he was starting to truly realize the limits of his power which he acquired from the SF.
Originally posted by abhilegend
His speed was increased. I already said that.
The thing that baffles me, is that you actually thought that Barry is capable of doing these things to the Spectre unamped. Even if it wasn't stated on panel, it is obvious enough. I honestly thought you knew better.
Originally posted by abhilegend
And that was happening for years. Trying to paint it as if Wally's powers were in a mess and that's why he failed is disingenuous at best and lying at worst.
Yes, it wasn't a new development, I get that, but I'm not sure how is that relevant in any way. Why are you still in denial? Can't you read?
"naturally Barry contained it with his vibrations! but mine can't hold it - because they're different - destructive"
It doesn't get more crystal clear than this.
Originally posted by abhilegend
And "Barry stopped it because he can control his molecules or maybe he changed his molecules to anti matter" operator Flash that is.Except he stopped because he generated more energy than the cannon could handle. And the cannon could handle universal level energies.
http://i.imgur.com/ZW76pcc.jpg
Barry overloaded the cannon and then contained it. Not stopped it due to turning into anti matter.
😂
I already admitted that that was an assumption and merely mentioned it to strengthen my case, my main argument was the on panel evidence which I provided above, so I'm not sure why you're still clinging to the irrelevant part?
Anyway, wrong as usual. There are several accounts of the AM cannon instance which contradict each other in terms of these little details. For example, Secret Origins tells us that the cannon was powered by a tachyon particle and that Flash stopped the cannon by running and catching said particle; your JLA account tells us something different. So why don't we just look at what happened in the main event itself.
http://imgur.com/YTr8CNj
http://imgur.com/roEDSAO
As you can see, Flash clearly said that all what he was doing is forcing the anti matter back to the cannon, which is how he was able to stop it.
Furthermore, that's what the official index confirms:
"Force the energy back into the machine" - just like what happened on panel.
And that's how Waid saw it apparently, because he mentions that Barry contained the cannon with his vibrations, not by generating more energy than the cannon can take, and was the sole reason why Wally failed - because his vibrations were destructive unlike Barry's.
You also took that scan out of context. The cannon already had universal+ energies inside it. Maybe that was its maximum capacity so all Barry had to do is generate a little more and it would overload. But that's beside the point anyway because your account isn't more reliable than any of others which don't agree on the little details, which is why we should look at what happened in the main series.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Sarcasm is definitely not your friend.
Neither is it yours apparently, because you'd have to be actually right for it to work. A trait you're severely lacking in this thread.
Originally posted by operator616
No he wasn't. And I never claimed that Flash was human level, the exact opposite in fact. It seems you have trouble comprehending my posts.
Yet, here you are posting scans of Flash unable to beat a human. So either you are claiming Flash was human level or just lowballing him.
So what is it?
He was granted a leave of absence in GL v2 #76; the power reduction was first mentioned in #77 (1970); Hal's series was cancelled in issue #89 and then he started to appear in the Flash comics where his powers did go up a bit again from what I remember. Although he was legitimately back to full power and got a more powerful ring when his series re-surfaced in issue #90 (1976).
So basically he was human Flash level in between? How embarrassing!
Just stop, will you? Again:
Why? It is too much fun.
let's ignore the fact that the magician was absorbing their power. And Superman outright saying that his blows regularly wouldn't hurt him.
Yes and GL failed to do so even in that state. So Superman and GLs were dropped to human level, right?
You know me, I never start hostility unless the other person is being hostile first. You were the one who started being hostile and face palming my posts, which is ironic, because now we both know that I was right all along.
You were right for one thing and wrong for another. And you started hostility in the first place.
Yes he was, are you sure you are reading the right comics? I mean, it's pretty weird for you to make such a comment when half of Flash's PC comics focus on him doing exactly that: Fighting one of his rogues.
And winning. Half of it was doing insane shit like blowing up suns and running across galaxies.
I can't emphasize this enough but his entire PC history goes completely against your comments here.
No, it doesn't.
Yes, seriously, it wasn't that inconsistent, and I dare you to prove me otherwise.
Do you want me to post the insane shit Barry used to pull in Silver Age?
Let's get something straight first: Waid was full of shit in that arc. He had Wally destroy AM's armor with his vibrations yet couldn't do the same to random robots no matter how hard he tried a few issues earlier. I mean, wtf?
And yet you are penalizing Barry for fighting his rogues, eh?
But even putting that aside, this was Wally at his absolute peak, this time period in particular was truly different from the others. In the space of a year he acquired three insane feats (the gamblers affair, the black flash, and the AM arc), He wasn't dealing with the rogues at that period, it was all cosmic. Now I know you'll respond with "But you said that his powers were in a mess" - they were, he couldn't control his vibrations, but that doesn't mean his power level was dampened; he was starting to truly realize the limits of his power which he acquired from the SF.
So he didn't have any trouble with his rogues, eh? Never lost to Deathstroke after that?
https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/deathstrokejla3.jpg
Are you sure about that?
Looks like Wally is human level too.
The thing that baffles me, is that you actually thought that Barry is capable of doing these things to the Spectre unamped. Even if it wasn't stated on panel, it is obvious enough. I honestly thought you knew better.
No need to gloat. I already conceded about that.
Yes, it wasn't a new development, I get that, but I'm not sure how is that relevant in any way. Why are you still in denial? Can't you read?"naturally Barry contained it with his vibrations! [B]but mine can't hold it - because they're different - destructive"
Yes, and here you are flat out wrong. Barry contained it and forced it back through his own power. Tell us more about how he changed himself to anti matter to do that.
You are simply not comprehending the scope of the feat.
It doesn't get more crystal clear than this.
Ah yes, but how did human level Barry Allen pulled out universal feats?
I already admitted that that was an assumption and merely mentioned it to strengthen my case, my main argument was the on panel evidence which I provided above, so I'm not sure why you're still clinging to the irrelevant part?
Because it amuses me.
Do I need another reason to point out your mistakes?
Anyway, wrong as usual.
Haha, this is not your written comic. There is no right or wrong between two different interpretations.
There are several accounts of the AM cannon instance which contradict each other in terms of these little details. For example, Secret Origins tells us that the cannon was powered by a tachyon particle and that Flash stopped the cannon by running and catching said particle; your JLA account tells us something different. So why don't we just look at what happened in the main event itself.
That doesn't mean the comic itself is wrong. You are being absurd.
http://imgur.com/YTr8CNj
http://imgur.com/roEDSAOAs you can see, Flash clearly said that all what he was doing is forcing the anti matter back to the cannon, which is how he was able to stop it.
Yes, and he is doing that in the JLA scene as well. There he is generating counter force to compress the energy back in the cannon.
Furthermore, that's what the official index confirms:"Force the energy back into the machine" - just like what happened on panel.
Even if we consider so, JLA instance is newer and more clear about what happened. So once again, how does human level Barry Allen did that? Isn't he always struggling against his rogues?
And that's how Waid saw it apparently, because he mentions that Barry contained the cannon with his vibrations, not by generating more energy than the cannon can take, and was the sole reason why Wally failed - because his vibrations were destructive unlike Barry's.
Yes, and it shows Barry was more skilled about his powers.
But even containing universal level energies is impressive for human level barry allen, wouldn't you say?
You also took that scan out of context. The cannon already had universal+ energies inside it. Maybe that was its maximum capacity so all Barry had to do is generate a little more and it would overload. But that's beside the point anyway because your account isn't more reliable than any of others which don't agree on the little details, which is why we should look at what happened in the main series.
No, it is reliable all right. Just because you don't like it doesn't means it non canon somehow.
Neither is it yours apparently, because you'd have to be actually right for it to work. A trait you're severely lacking in this thread. [/B]
Haha, the sanctimonious approach is almost pitiful.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yet, here you are posting scans of Flash unable to beat a human. So either you are claiming Flash was human level or just lowballing him.So what is it?
You are spouting a bunch of nonsense at this point. I posted a scan of Barry's "striking power". Which is much more close to his average portrayal than your out of context Spectre scans. This is such a basic concept that i don't even know why I'm debating this with you. Do me a favor will you? Pick a random pre-Crisis Flash comic and read it then come back to me and point out which is the closer portrayal to the comic you read. Otherwise, you can go ahead and continue deluding yourself that Barry's average portrayal is punching a planet out of orbit or better yet, hurting the Spectre. I honestly don't give a shit at this point.
I wont comment on your other parts of the post where the same "Flash is human level right?" rubbish is being repeated over and over again.
Originally posted by abhilegendDo you want me to post the insane shit Barry used to pull in Silver Age?
He had his moments, which are very few and not on Wally's level.
But go ahead and post them. Enlighten me.
Originally posted by abhilegend
So he didn't have any trouble with his rogues, eh? Never lost to Deathstroke after that?https://arousinggrammardotcom.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/deathstrokejla3.jpg
Are you sure about that?
Looks like Wally is human level too.
Way to post an instance several years later when I specifically emphasized the importance of the time period which he was in. But then again, it's you.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and here you are flat out wrong. Barry contained it and forced it back through his own power. Tell us more about how he changed himself to anti matter to do that.You are simply not comprehending the scope of the feat.
Haha, this is not your written comic. There is no right or wrong between two different interpretations.
That doesn't mean the comic itself is wrong. You are being absurd.
Yes, and he is doing that in the JLA scene as well. There he is generating counter force to compress the energy back in the cannon.
There is right or wrong between two different interpretations because we're specifically debating the aspect which the writers seem to disagree upon.
In which case, going back to the original series, Barry did contain the AM cannon and force it back on itself. As opposed to Barry overloading the universal+ cannon like your scans/posts seem to imply. Hell, a third interpretation didn't even mention Barry forcing the anti matter back, but rather outrunning the tachyon particle which powers the cannon. Clearly, we should consider what the original intent was, especially when we're debating Barry of that time period in which it was written.
Originally posted by abhilegend
Because it amuses me.
Just so you know, you basically admitted to trolling. Not that I ever doubted you.
