The Runner Vs Pre-Crisis Barry Allen

Originally posted by operator616
You are spouting a bunch of nonsense at this point. I posted a scan of Barry's "striking power".

Which failed to knock out a human as you put it. So he is basically human level right?

Which is much more close to his average portrayal than your out of context Spectre scans. This is such a basic concept that i don't even know why I'm debating this with you. Do me a favor will you? Pick a random pre-Crisis Flash comic and read it then come back to me and point out which is the closer portrayal to the comic you read.

So you are admitting that Barry was just human level in striking power, right? Why are you so afraid of admitting what you just "proved."

Otherwise, you can go ahead and continue deluding yourself that Barry's average portrayal is punching a planet out of orbit or better yet, hurting the Spectre. I honestly don't give a shit at this point.

Or hurting a somewhat weakened Superman isn't impressive when GL couldn't.

I wont comment on your other parts of the post where the same "Flash is human level right?" rubbish is being repeated over and over again.

But Rogues were human and you told me in the whole thread that Flash's average was to struggle against them.

So how come he isn't human level on average.

He had his moments, which are very few and not on Wally's level.

How about no?

But go ahead and post them. Enlighten me.

But how can I enlighten you? Don't you have read pretty much every comic ever?

Way to post an instance several years later when I specifically emphasized the importance of the time period which he was in. But then again, it's you.

So it doesn't counts? But Barry's does?

There is right or wrong between two different interpretations because we're specifically debating the aspect which the writers seem to disagree upon.

No, there isn't. Not in this case where all Ostrander did was expand what actually happened in the comic.

In which case, going back to the original series, Barry did contain the AM cannon and force it back on itself. As opposed to Barry overloading the universal+ cannon like your scans/posts seem to imply. Hell, a third interpretation didn't even mention Barry forcing the anti matter back, but rather outrunning the tachyon particle which powers the cannon. Clearly, we should consider what the original intent was, especially when we're debating Barry of that time period in which it was written.

Yes, and Barry containing universal+ energies isn't impressive somehow. According to you that is.

Just so you know, you basically admitted to trolling. Not that I ever doubted you.

No, I just informed that I'm pointing out your rubbish claim that Barry turned into anti matter amuses me because you are really trying your hardest to paint Barry stopping the cannon as unimpressive.

Keep it up.

👆

Originally posted by operator616
Lol. You know better than anyone how frustrating Abhi's intransigence can be.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Which failed to knock out a human as you put it. So he is basically human level right?

So you are admitting that Barry was just human level in striking power, right? Why are you so afraid of admitting what you just "proved."

Alright. This is my last post on this part of the subject but it's not my fault if you're too dumb to understand it like my previous posts.

Firstly, I never claimed Flash is human level but in comparison to his herald peers he is physically weak, that is my point. There is no debate about it and has always been like that since the golden age; hell Jay once broke his hand punching a normal human at super speed; granted, in the silver age Barry acquired better physicality than Jay in the golden age but he was still pretty weak compared to top tiers physically. Just look what happens when he confronts Goldface for example, who casually stomped him to the ground 3 times in a row and Barry couldn't even budge him no matter how hard he tried. Wally got better in the post-Crisis era and by extension so did Barry and Jay when they were featured in the post-Crisis comics. But we're talking pre-Crisis Barry here, and he was sub-par in the physical department. When I posted that striking power scan, I did it to poke fun at Barry mostly; I know it's not his average (but it is much closer to it than your out of context scans); and to show you that there's no way someone can have trouble hurting a thug while also able to hurt the Spectre. This simply doesn't happen.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Or hurting a somewhat weakened Superman isn't impressive when GL couldn't.

Weakened-era GL as I have established before and you continuously ignored. That was the same GL who was KO'd by standing near to a simple explosion which did nothing to the human standing near to him. Among other things which I just don't care to mention.

Originally posted by abhilegend
But Rogues were human and you told me in the whole thread that Flash's average was to struggle against them.

So how come he isn't human level on average.

Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with you? Should I clarify every single little detail for you to understand? Rogues aren't human level. Mirror Master creates a mirror duplicator which affects the real person, captain boomerang has boomerangs which can time travel, the top has telekinetic powers, pied piper's music could control Flash, etc...
They're not human level but neither are they top tier, yet Flash always struggles with them and that's his average.

I'm tired of explaining this boring, basic shit to you all the time.

Originally posted by abhilegend
How about no?

But how can I enlighten you? Don't you have read pretty much every comic ever?

How about you just show me.

Where the hell did I claim I read every comic ever? No idea where's this coming from. But I'm not sure why all your counters focus on personal attacks instead of just the material at hand. Can't you just post the scans already.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, there isn't. Not in this case where all Ostrander did was expand what actually happened in the comic.

He didn't expand, he outright contradicted it. He attributed Barry overloading the cannon to it being stopped, while in the original series all he did was force the anti matter back.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, and Barry containing universal+ energies isn't impressive somehow. According to you that is.

No, I just informed that I'm pointing out your rubbish claim that Barry turned into anti matter amuses me because you are really trying your hardest to paint Barry stopping the cannon as unimpressive.

Keep it up.

You are either completely incapable of comprehending my posts, or you simply like to twist things.

Our whole debate is figuring out why Wally was unable to do what Barry did to the AM cannon, nowhere did I say that the feat is unimpressive or try to paint it as such.

I have to say I see way way more drama on here over debates than I ever did on CBR.

Just some food for thought.

Originally posted by operator616
Alright. This is my last post on this part of the subject but it's not my fault if you're too dumb to understand it like my previous posts.

Pardon us mere mortals who haven't read every comic ever.

Firstly, I never claimed Flash is human level but in comparison to his herald peers he is physically weak, that is my point. There is no debate about it and has always been like that since the golden age; hell Jay once broke his hand punching a normal human at super speed; granted, in the silver age Barry acquired better physicality than Jay in the golden age but he was still pretty weak compared to top tiers physically. Just look what happens when he confronts Goldface for example, who casually stomped him to the ground 3 times in a row and Barry couldn't even budge him no matter how hard he tried. Wally got better in the post-Crisis era and by extension so did Barry and Jay when they were featured in the post-Crisis comics. But we're talking pre-Crisis Barry here, and he was sub-par in the physical department. When I posted that striking power scan, I did it to poke fun at Barry mostly; I know it's not his average (but it is much closer to it than your out of context scans); and to show you that there's no way someone can have trouble hurting a thug while also able to hurt the Spectre. This simply doesn't happen.

So he is human level but not human levels too.

And Wally broke his hand punching Grodd as well.

Flashes are the most inconsistent top tiers ever. They can beat everyone and get beaten up by everyone. Its just how the character works.

Weakened-era GL as I have established before and you continuously ignored. That was the same GL who was KO'd by standing near to a simple explosion which did nothing to the human standing near to him. Among other things which I just don't care to mention.

Yes, so GL was human level as well. Good to know. How about Superman now? If we are going by lowest feats, you might want to tell us about his lowest feats as well.

Jesus Christ what the hell is wrong with you?

Absolutely nothing. Just poking fun at your logic.

Should I clarify every single little detail for you to understand? Rogues aren't human level. Mirror Master creates a mirror duplicator which affects the real person, captain boomerang has boomerangs which can time travel, the top has telekinetic powers, pied piper's music could control Flash, etc...
They're not human level but neither are they top tier, yet Flash always struggles with them and that's his average.

So yes, Barry and Wally are human levels. But at the same time they are not.

Basically you want to have your cake and eat it too.

I'm tired of explaining this boring, basic shit to you all the time.

Then you shouldn't make absurd claims like Flash's average is struggling with the rogues.

How about you just show me.

But what can I show you which you haven't already read?

Where the hell did I claim I read every comic ever? No idea where's this coming from. But I'm not sure why all your counters focus on personal attacks instead of just the material at hand. Can't you just post the scans already.

How is claiming you have read every comic a personal insult?

I already posted Barry's most famous feat ever and it wasn't enough for you?

He didn't expand, he outright contradicted it. He attributed Barry overloading the cannon to it being stopped, while in the original series all he did was force the anti matter back.

And yes, it is as much canon as COIE.

You are either completely incapable of comprehending my posts, or you simply like to twist things.

Or perhaps Barry wasn't as unimpressive as you are making him out to be.

Our whole debate is figuring out why Wally was unable to do what Barry did to the AM cannon, nowhere did I say that the feat is unimpressive or try to paint it as such.

But you have already established Barry was Rogues level at average. How does he go from there to universal+ level?

Originally posted by abhilegend
So he is human level but not human levels too.

And Wally broke his hand punching Grodd as well.

Flashes are the most inconsistent top tiers ever. They can beat everyone and get beaten up by everyone. Its just how the character works.

So he is above human level, just that human level (in the physical department) is much closer to PC Barry's average as opposed to Abhi-Flash who could punch the Spectre.

You're comparing Grodd to a human 😂 And Wally has actually broken his hand punching a regular gorilla not just Grodd who is a super powered gorilla. But that was pre-Crisis so I hope you are starting to see that in the PC the flashes were weaker. Something you don't seem to be getting.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, so GL was human level as well. Good to know. How about Superman now? If we are going by lowest feats, you might want to tell us about his lowest feats as well.

Right because it's not like he has a power ring or anything; just that his constructs are weaker and his ring doesn't automatically protect him like it used to.

Actually now that you brought Superman up. He was permanently depowered at the end of the silver Age. In the Sand superman story-line, he was depowered to being 2/3 of his strength and that was evident through his showings in the bronze age.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Then you shouldn't make absurd claims like Flash's average is struggling with the rogues.

"absurd claims" based on decades worth of comics. It's your comments who are absurd if you think otherwise.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I already posted Barry's most famous feat ever and it wasn't enough for you?

But you claimed that he was a "feat monster". I have a few feats in my mind but I'm curious what's yours? Surely you can't be basing your opinion on a single feat? Abhi-flash is someone who can consistently contend with Superman; punch a planet out of orbit and even beat the Spectre himself.

Originally posted by abhilegend

And yes, it is as much canon as COIE.

Or perhaps Barry wasn't as unimpressive as you are making him out to be.

But you have already established Barry was Rogues level at average. How does he go from there to universal+ level?

And Secret Origins is canon too, yet it contradicts both.

Or perhaps he was.

It's not a universal+ feat; all he did was force some of the anti matter back to the cannon. It's an impressive feat but not an abstract level like you're making out to be. And it's a feat which was right before his death; so the writers may as well have him perform something out of the ordinary before his death. Similar to what they did with Supergirl.

Originally posted by operator616
So he is above human level, just that human level (in the physical department) is much closer to PC Barry's average as opposed to Abhi-Flash who could punch the Spectre.

I already admitted that his speed was amped there.

You're comparing Grodd to a human 😂 And Wally has actually broken his hand punching a regular gorilla not just Grodd who is a super powered gorilla. But that was pre-Crisis so I hope you are starting to see that in the PC the flashes were weaker. Something you don't seem to be getting.

Grodd instance happened to post crisis Wally under Johns.

Grodd also no sold several of his punches and called him soft. Barry had beaten Grodd with just punches before.

Then again Wally and Bart punched SBP with no problem just alright.

Right because it's not like he has a power ring or anything; just that his constructs are weaker and his ring doesn't automatically protect him like it used to.

That was always how it is. Hal was koed by a tree branch smacking him and was koed by random thugs.

Even Kyle whose ring had auto protect feature was stunned by a thug smashing him over his head.

Flash was beaten by some random people in his own comic. These all happened post crisis. Low showings are there for every character.

Actually now that you brought Superman up. He was permanently depowered at the end of the silver Age. In the Sand superman story-line, he was depowered to being 2/3 of his strength and that was evident through his showings in the bronze age.

He was still stronger than pretty much every hero post crisis or pre crisis except Captain Marvel. He could still move planets or destroy stars.

I'm eagerly awaiting how Superman was human level in bronze age though.

"absurd claims" based on decades worth of comics. It's your comments who are absurd if you think otherwise.

😂

That's just so amusing.

But you claimed that he was a "feat monster". I have a few feats in my mind but I'm curious what's yours? Surely you can't be basing your opinion on a single feat? Abhi-flash is someone who can consistently contend with Superman; punch a planet out of orbit and even beat the Spectre himself.

Now who is putting words in my mouth? Where did I say he was able to contend with Superman?

I already concede on Spectre part. You are just harping on it needlessly.

And Secret Origins is canon too, yet it contradicts both.

Is it? Flash rebirth retconned it out.

Or perhaps he was.

😂

It's not a universal+ feat; all he did was force some of the anti matter back to the cannon. It's an impressive feat but not an abstract level like you're making out to be. And it's a feat which was right before his death; so the writers may as well have him perform something out of the ordinary before his death. Similar to what they did with Supergirl.

Haha, all measures are taken to lowball even that.

"It wasn't impressive. He just pushed some anti matter. See how that wasn't impressive."

"He was going to die. So he was given a high feat. It doesn't counts. Just like Supergirl."

List some more reasons. They are highly amusing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Grodd instance happened to post crisis Wally under Johns.

Grodd also no sold several of his punches and called him soft. Barry had beaten Grodd with just punches before.

Then again Wally and Bart punched SBP with no problem just alright.

I was referring to punching a regular gorilla which happened pre-Crisis. Keep up.

post-Crisis Wally has KO'd Grodd with punches at least 3 times that I can recall (in #194, #221, #240). And you seem to be ignoring the fact that we are debating Pre Crisis Barry as opposed to post Crisis where he returned more powerful than ever. Also pre-Crisis Grodd was physically weaker than post-crisis from what I recall.

Post Crisis Flashes had a significantly better striking power than in the pre-Crisis era. You don't seem to get that. There was no IMP pre-Crisis and they were just physically sub-par at best.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was always how it is. Hal was koed by a tree branch smacking him and was koed by random thugs.

Even Kyle whose ring had auto protect feature was stunned by a thug smashing him over his head.

Flash was beaten by some random people in his own comic. These all happened post crisis. Low showings are there for every character.

That's besides the point. That more has to do with writer inconsistency than depowerment. Sometimes the ring protected hal even when he's KO'd. Other times it didn't even when he isn't but unaware of the danger. It's inconsistency. But in that mid 70s his ring unable to protect him was specifically attributed to him being depowered.

Actually no. Kyle for example was only ever unable to protect himself from a random bullet once in his whole series from what I remember, along with the thug smashing his head instance which you referred to. These kind of lows happened consistently to pre-Crisis Flash and pre-Crisis Hal.

Originally posted by abhilegend
He was still stronger than pretty much every hero post crisis or pre crisis except Captain Marvel. He could still move planets or destroy stars.

Don't disagree with that; just clarifying that he wasn't at his silver age level of power.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Is it? Flash rebirth retconned it out.

No it didn't. it "expanded" upon it.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Haha, all measures are taken to lowball even that.

"It wasn't impressive. He just pushed some anti matter. See how that wasn't impressive."

"He was going to die. So he was given a high feat. It doesn't counts. Just like Supergirl."

List some more reasons. They are highly amusing.

It wasn't as impressive as you're making out to be. But it's still impressive.

Originally posted by operator616
I was referring to punching a regular gorilla which happened pre-Crisis. Keep up.

I was talking about post crisis where Wally broke his hand punching Grodd.

post-Crisis Wally has KO'd Grodd with punches at least 3 times that I can recall (in #194, #221, #240). And you seem to be ignoring the fact that we are debating Pre Crisis Barry as opposed to post Crisis where he returned more powerful than ever. Also pre-Crisis Grodd was physically weaker than post-crisis from what I recall.

Tell me how much harder Wally hits than barry.

And pre crisis Grodd stalemated Kalibak in h2h. Post crisis Grodd has no feat near that level.

Post Crisis Flashes had a significantly better striking power than in the pre-Crisis era. You don't seem to get that. There was no IMP pre-Crisis and they were just physically sub-par at best.

Funny how that works. Wally has used imp only once. And there is no pre crisis Barry allen. He is one character whose history is totally unchanged from post crisis to pre crisis.

That's besides the point. That more has to do with writer inconsistency than depowerment. Sometimes the ring protected hal even when he's KO'd. Other times it didn't even when he isn't but unaware of the danger. It's inconsistency. But in that mid 70s his ring unable to protect him was specifically attributed to him being depowered.

Yes, silver age was inconsistent. We get that.

Actually no. Kyle for example was only ever unable to protect himself from a random bullet once in his whole series from what I remember, along with the thug smashing his head instance which you referred to. These kind of lows happened consistently to pre-Crisis Flash and pre-Crisis Hal.

And to Wally as well. Post crisis was more consistent because they had a more strict continuity. Pre crisis was a loose continuity at best and no continuity at times. Hence more inconsistent and harder to average.

Don't disagree with that; just clarifying that he wasn't at his silver age level of power.

I know.

No it didn't. it "expanded" upon it.

Uh, whatever you say.

It wasn't as impressive as you're making out to be. But it's still impressive.

Good enough for me. This discussion has run its course.

And I made that pun intentionally.

Feel free to have the last word.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I was talking about post crisis where Wally broke his hand punching Grodd.

Tell me how much harder Wally hits than barry.

And pre crisis Grodd stalemated Kalibak in h2h. Post crisis Grodd has no feat near that level.

(I removed some of your scans because of an error which said they're too many scans in my post)

Is there a point you're making in posting these scans? And why don't you post what happened in the next issue, I even referenced it in my previous post.

But alright. Big deal Wally breaking his hand due to Grodd. Barry was KO'd with a piece of paper (among many lulz-worthy things I can name). Can you top that? It's funny I know, feel free to check the issue yourself if you don't believe me (Flash v1 #148).

You mean he lost and the only reason he could keep up is because of his tp. From what I remember, pre-Crisis Grodd was more of a problem to Flash because of his telepathy rather than physicality. On the other hand, Post-crisis grodd was a physical powerhouse.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Funny how that works. Wally has used imp only once. And there is no pre crisis Barry allen. He is one character whose history is totally unchanged from post crisis to pre crisis.

In other news: Water is wet.

Of course he's the same character, captain obvious, but we're debating the character of that particular era, who had a different power level at least. He was less powerful.

And Wally has used IMP twice actually. But that's beside the point.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Yes, silver age was inconsistent. We get that.

And to Wally as well. Post crisis was more consistent because they had a more strict continuity. Pre crisis was a loose continuity at best and no continuity at times. Hence more inconsistent and harder to average.

I rest my case because you basically admitted to everything I was saying all along. 👆

Pre-Crisis had more low showings = their average is lower. We're done.

And pre-Crisis was quite consistent (very consistent in the Bronze Age), I could get into details if you want, but id rather not.

Originally posted by abhilegend

Good enough for me. This discussion has run its course.

And I made that pun intentionally.

Feel free to have the last word.

I don't know how I was even dragged into this kind of debate 😂 but I guess it was worth it in the end since you admitted my point all along. Next time, save us the trouble and admit it from the beginning.

😂