Iron Fist/w Prep vs Batman, Cassandra Cain, & Nightwing

Originally posted by abhilegend
Everything canon counts. And handbooks are canon.

Everything.

Which is the problem as there is so much material to go by there is no consistency to be found anywhere.

Quote that rule. Or shut up.

I wasn't quoting a ruling. I was saying we can't rely on showings over other characters because they routinely make no sense. So, we need something else to back them up.

Why would anyone think that?

Your butthhurt has reached new heights.

That's the case as already noted before. In order for Batman to do things he did in those fights? He needs to be that fast, and strong.

Pure skill does not substitute that.

That, or the characters he is fighting have to be acting as if they are complete idiots and not use their powers.

No, they win. Easily.

If go by Batgod, and his omnipotence.

Sure.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Which is the problem as there is so much material to go by there is no consistency to be found anywhere.

That's where averages come. Iron Fist isn't going to destroy a hellicarrier on average. Batman isn't going to ko wonder woman on average.

I wasn't quoting a ruling. I was saying we can't rely on showings over other characters because they routinely make no sense. So, we need something else to back them up.

No we don't. Change the rules of the forum first.

That's the case as already noted before. In order for Batman to do things he did in those fights? He needs to be that fast, and strong.

Nope. He just has to be that skilled.

Pure skill does not substitute that.

That, or the characters he is fighting have to be acting as if they are complete idiots and not use their powers.

In comics it does. Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not.

You don't get to choose.

If go by Batgod, and his omnipotence.

Sure.

Finally you're learning.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's where averages come. Iron Fist isn't going to destroy a hellicarrier on average. Batman isn't going to ko wonder woman on average.

No, I provided several instances where Iron Fist does something of a similar scale. When his Iron Fist caused collateral damage akin to a hydrogen bomb for example. In Deadly Hands of Kung Fu.

No we don't. Change the rules of the forum first.

Yes, we do. You can't honestly use those instances. You know it, and I know it. Otherwise, you're just using them to draw out the argument.

Nope. He just has to be that skilled.

Okay, explain how skill makes up the difference in speed and strength. In a way that doesn't make the scene come off as PIS or CIS.

In comics it does. Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you or not.

It doesn't make sense period even when you place it in line with what Batman is capable of outside of his showings over other characters.

You don't get to choose.

Neither do you. You're trying to say this is something it isn't.

Finally you're learning.

So, you're fine with Batman being capable of anything and being omnipotent?

Originally posted by Sharivan
No, I provided several instances where Iron Fist does something of a similar scale. When his Iron Fist caused collateral damage akin to a hydrogen bomb for example. In Deadly Hands of Kung Fu.

Hyperbole. I like how you claim that when it suits you.

Yes, we do. You can't honestly use those instances. You know it, and I know it. Otherwise, you're just using them to draw out the argument.

Yes, I can. Show me the rule which prohibited me.

You know nothing kid.

Okay, explain how skill makes up the difference in speed and strength. In a way that doesn't make the scene come off as PIS or CIS.

It's not about explaining it. This is how comics work.

Take it or leave it. Doesn't concerns me.

It doesn't make sense period even when you place it in line with what Batman is capable of outside of his showings over other characters.

Not my concern. If it bothers you so much, stop reading comics.

Neither do you. You're trying to say this is something it isn't.

Never did.

So, you're fine with Batman being capable of anything and being omnipotent?

Of course. If that takes to beat Iron Fist, I'm ok with it.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Yes, he does in order to even faze these characters. In a showing over another character named Green Lantern, and of which whose energy beams are hilarious inconsistent in terms of speed.

You have to prove that it's even moving this fast in this scene. Ignoring that it's coming from a showing over another character.

😂 yeah, cuz superman and wonder woman are never been hurt by less than planet-busting shots... have you even READ a comic book? and prove green lantern light was moving at c?? 😑. reasonable request. 👆

Nope, I portray things outside of showings over characters as the final word on it.

the part you seem to fail to grasp--repeatedly--is that the way YOU see things is NOT the way WE ALL need to. you seem to have a problem with the forum rules. but if you don't like it, no one is keeping you here. since the forum dictates the way we debate, and even has specific rules for those showings that are severe cases of pis, well, how you THINK things should be done doesn't matter.

It being consistent doesn't keep it from being consistently retarded. As I already noted Batman's power is that he is popular. The writers are going to favor him even when it doesn't make any sense.

retarded. IN YOUR OPINION! you keep leaving that part out. and if dc comics, the owner of said character, wants him to be someone capable of doing seemingly impossible things, over and over again, then that is precisely how he needs to be debated. or you're not debating the character, and you're simply debating the character the way YOU feel it should be portrayed. which, again, is ludicrously arrogant. always a good idea to take some random forum posters' view of a character over the company's view. very sound logic and not retarded at all.

No, they're not. You have to prove Batman is actually capable of these things outside his showings over other characters.

you seem to think i'm (and others are) somehow answerable to you. 😂 again, i don't have to show you ANYTHING. his fights speak for themselves. i also showed you a slew of stealth-related feats. here, agility, strength, durability, pain tolerance, combat speed, speed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lvt91/agility/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lwmgu/strength/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3m13yj/durability/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lvxrl/reactioncombat_speed/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lvve4/movement_speed/

there you go. and that's not even the best respect thread for bats. all in under a minute and chock full of dozens of feats performed outside of battles. 👆

No, I wouldn't ignore the ones where Batman isn't fighting some other notable character. I wouldn't ignore his feats outside of his showings over other characters. Those are the ones that are the most reliable.

well, now you have plenty. knock yourself out. more are just a google search away.

Yet, for some reason you can't understand this.

i understand you attempting to move the forum goalposts, because if we debate per the rules of the forum, you don't like the result. i firmly understand that.

I have, and you haven't given me what I asked for. You're ignoring what I am asking for, and providing showings over other characters.

see above. don't like those?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3m1bh5/batman_mega_respect_thread_hub/

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3m63vw/respect_batman_bruce_wayne_pcn52/

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.ca/

there you go. about 40 years worth of feats for ya.

I don't like them because they mean that Batman is a faster than light planet destroying demi-god.

In what world does that make sense?

in the worlds of the dcu, obviously. you know, the only world that matters....

So, it should be easy for you to provide feats outside of his showings over other characters? If all it takes is a fifteen second google search. Yet, you have still failed to provide me with what I asked for. [/B]

done and done. at this point i'm reasonably certain you're trolling but keep b!tching about the rules and trying to tell people what does and doesn't constitute proof in a debate, and, well, you could find yourself in sh!t. again.....

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hyperbole. I like how you claim that when it suits you.

It's not hyperbole, and it specifically caused a bunch of collateral damage in the surrounding area.

Yes, I can. Show me the rule which prohibited me.

You can, but it's dishonest. Which is what I have been saying. Yet, you're apparently fine with that.

You know nothing kid.

I ain't Jon Snow. I'm more along the lines of Sandor Clegane.

It's not about explaining it. This is how comics work.

It is about explaining it because we are debating it in a versus context. Which requires objectivity on our parts.

Take it or leave it. Doesn't concerns me.

Not my concern. If it bothers you so much, stop reading comics.

It doesn't matter if it bothers me or not. I enjoy comic books despite their many, many flaws. So long as the story is half decent.

Never did.

You claimed Batman managed his victories in those ridiculous fights with pure skill. Which is false because what happened in those fights has nothing to do with skill, and skill does not work that way.

That, or it's PIS or CIS.

Of course. If that takes to beat Iron Fist, I'm ok with it. [/B]

So, you're allowing something as nonsensical as that simply because of a personal bias you have against Iron Fist now? That's the opposite of objective.

Originally posted by Sharivan
It's not hyperbole, and it specifically caused a bunch of collateral damage in the surrounding area.

A hydrogen bomb does more than that. Ergo, hyperbole.

You can, but it's dishonest. Which is what I have been saying. Yet, you're apparently fine with that.

No, it's just the nature of comics.

You're the one showing dishonesty when it suits you.

I ain't Jon Snow. I'm more along the lines of Sandor Clegane.

Who cares?

It is about explaining it because we are debating it in a versus context. Which requires objectivity on our parts.

That doesn't means you can ignore anything I said.

Fights are always usable. Nothing you can say about it matters. I'm not even going to listen anything against it.

Unless you change the rules of the forum.

It doesn't matter if it bothers me or not. I enjoy comic books despite their many, many flaws. So long as the story is half decent.

Of course you don't.

These are all inconsistent anyway.

You claimed Batman managed his victories in those ridiculous fights with pure skill. Which is false because what happened in those fights has nothing to do with skill, and skill does not work that way.

That, or it's PIS or CIS.

It works in comics. Ask Karate Kid.

So, you're allowing something as nonsensical as that simply because of a personal bias you have against Iron Fist now? That's the opposite of objective.

No, it is just what you are making Iron Fist to be.

Team wins. Easily.

Originally posted by leonidas
😂 yeah, cuz superman and wonder woman are never been hurt by less than planet-busting shots... have you even READ a comic book? and prove green lantern light was moving at c?? 😑. reasonable request. 👆

It's comic books after all, and nothing makes sense in them. So, why should Green Lantern's energy blasts always be lightspeed when they are repeatably demonstrated to act very differently from light?

the part you seem to fail to grasp--repeatedly--is that the way YOU see things is NOT the way WE ALL need to. you seem to have a problem with the forum rules. but if you don't like it, no one is keeping you here. since the forum dictates the way we debate, and even has specific rules for those showings that are severe cases of pis, well, how you THINK things should be done doesn't matter.

No, I understand that and here is the thing:

You are failing to convince me. You are failing to address my points, and you are failing to address my questions.

retarded. IN YOUR OPINION! you keep leaving that part out. and if dc comics, the owner of said character, wants him to be someone capable of doing seemingly impossible things, over and over again, then that is precisely how he needs to be debated. or you're not debating the character, and you're simply debating the character the way YOU feel it should be portrayed. which, again, is ludicrously arrogant. always a good idea to take some random forum posters' view of a character over the company's view. very sound logic and not retarded at all.

Despite the fact companies do not care about these things, and only care about money. As for the writers themselves they don't universally agree on anything, and often times contradicted by the stories themselves.

It is against board rules to use databooks, and author statements in lieu of what happens in stories.

you seem to think i'm (and others are) somehow answerable to you. 😂 again, i don't have to show you ANYTHING. his fights speak for themselves. i also showed you a slew of stealth-related feats. here, agility, strength, durability, pain tolerance, combat speed, speed:

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lvt91/agility/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lwmgu/strength/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3m13yj/durability/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lvxrl/reactioncombat_speed/

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3lvve4/movement_speed/

I am not going to dig through a bunch of respect threads. Point out the specific feats that match up Daniel Rand's.

there you go. and that's not even the best respect thread for bats. all in under a minute and chock full of dozens of feats performed outside of battles. 👆

Yes, and do any of those feats show Batman moving faster than light and punching planets to death?

As if they don't compare to Daniel Rand's he is not winning here, and neither are his allies.

well, now you have plenty. knock yourself out. more are just a google search away.

It's not my job to dig through a bunch of respect threads. It's yours as you are the one debating for Batman here.

i understand you attempting to move the forum goalposts, because if we debate per the rules of the forum, you don't like the result. i firmly understand that.

Straw man.

That's not what I am doing. What goal posts does this forum even have? I have been debating using basic reasoning. That's all.

What I do know is that databooks, and author statements outside of stories are useless.

see above. don't like those?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3m1bh5/batman_mega_respect_thread_hub/

https://www.reddit.com/r/respectthreads/comments/3m63vw/respect_batman_bruce_wayne_pcn52/

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.ca/

there you go. about 40 years worth of feats for ya.

It's not my job to dig through them. Now find which ones are relevant, and bring them to bare.

in the worlds of the dcu, obviously. you know, the only world that matters....

Which has no internal consistency, is written by countless different writers with varying knowledge and opinions, and where no one agrees on anything.

done and done.

No, and no.

You just provided a bunch of links and didn't specify at all. You just threw a bunch of garbage at me, and said "it's probably in there somewhere now look for it."

When that's not my job.

at this point i'm reasonably certain you're trolling but keep b!tching about the rules and trying to tell people what does and doesn't constitute proof in a debate, and, well, you could find yourself in sh!t. again.....

I am not trolling.

Maybe abhilegend is but that's par for the course, and from what I have seen many "debaters" here act as troglodytes do.

Welcome to KMC. I'll be your guide.

Originally posted by abhilegend
A hydrogen bomb does more than that. Ergo, hyperbole.

Is that so, and can you prove that the collateral damage Daniel Rand did there wasn't that significant?

Particularly, when it completely disintegrated a giant monster as well. Which would yield hilarious results if you calculated it.

No, it's just the nature of comics.

You're the one showing dishonesty when it suits you.

Comic books have no inherent nature. They are entirely inconsistent with themselves.

Oh, that's rich coming from you.

Who cares?

That doesn't means you can ignore anything I said.

Apparently only I do.

Yes, I can if you don't support it with evidence that is not fishy.

Fights are always usable. Nothing you can say about it matters. I'm not even going to listen anything against it.

So, you're going to plug your ears and refuse to be reasoned with?

Unless you change the rules of the forum.

So, you don't care about debate then. Just what others dictate as truth?

Of course you don't.

These are all inconsistent anyway.

Yes, I do.

Why do you think I own the Luther Strode trilogy and all those Superboy issues?

It works in comics. Ask Karate Kid.

Karate Kid's "pure skill" doesn't make sense either. He exhibits obviously superhuman abilities that you can't honestly attribute to "pure skil" either.

I would argue he is superhuman too.

No, it is just what you are making Iron Fist to be.

Team wins. Easily.

No, it's not what I am making him out to be. It's what he is.

No, they really don't.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Is that so, and can you prove that the collateral damage Daniel Rand did there wasn't that significant?

Particularly, when it completely disintegrated a giant monster as well. Which would yield hilarious results if you calculated it.

Yes, it didn't do as much damage as a hydrogen bomb. Ergo hyperbole.

I'm not here to prove a negative. The writers are idiots anyway. How do they know what's a hydrogen bomb?

Comic books have no inherent nature. They are entirely inconsistent with themselves.

So nothing matters. Why are you here then?

Oh, that's rich coming from you.

"No you" is default from you.

Apparently only I do.

Yes, I can if you don't support it with evidence that is not fishy.

There is nothing fishy about fights.

So, you're going to plug your ears and refuse to be reasoned with?

No, your "reasoning" doesn't works here.

Fights are as valid as anything. If anything, singular showings are inconsistent and can't be used to measure characters.

So, you don't care about debate then. Just what others dictate as truth?

No, what is in the comics is truth.

Yes, I do.

Why do you think I own the Luther Strode trilogy and all those Superboy issues?

Who knows and cares? But as you think all comics are stupid and inconsistent, you don't like them. Period.

Karate Kid's "pure skill" doesn't make sense either. He exhibits obviously superhuman abilities that you can't honestly attribute to "pure skil" either.

I would argue he is superhuman too.

So then everyone in comics is superhuman. Karate kid has never been superhuman BTW.

No, it's not what I am making him out to be. It's what he is.

No, he isn't.

No, they really don't.

Yes, they really do.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I get Shari's point, I really do.

But the problem is, as you say, he's established as being XYZ.

He's also established as doing crazy shite. With the internal logic being that he's Batman...its actually written as such (see Galan's scan). So its consistent.

Bats has sooo many examples of him being pretty superhuman, that its established he can do it. He can vanish from Superman's senses. Gotham's senses. Hurt beings he has no business hurting...and not just once or twice, either.

At what point do you cut it off, then?

Hey Darksaint, I'm about 8 beers in, so keep that in mind, but.

I know you guy are ****ing with him because he's kind of an ass. I "think" he means well, so don't go screwing with him too much.

We've all been there. At least he's not arguing out of good faith like Abhi would, you know?

Originally posted by cdtm
Hey Darksaint, I'm about 8 beers in, so keep that in mind, but.

Your body should be a temple. Lord Rand does not approve.

But I do 👆 May your liver get blessed with HF, cd.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Your body should be a temple. Lord Rand does not approve.

But I do 👆 May your liver get blessed with HF, cd.

'
😂 **** Lord Rand anyways. ******* doesn't know how to relax.

God damn, I'm a lightweight...

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yes, it didn't do as much damage as a hydrogen bomb. Ergo hyperbole.

I'm not here to prove a negative. The writers are idiots anyway. How do they know what's a hydrogen bomb?

They don't need to know. We see that kind of collateral damage. That giant monster was completely disintegrated.

Something that huge, and nothing was left behind in the wake of that destruction?

So nothing matters. Why are you here then?

The better question is why are you here? If not simply to repeat the same ad nauseam.

"No you" is default from you.

Whereas you are a broken record who doesn't address anything.

There is nothing fishy about fights.

A blatant lie, and something that you yourself don't agree with. As seen in the Character Ownage thread.

No, your "reasoning" doesn't works here.

So you say, and so you haven't done anything to prove that.

Fights are as valid as anything. If anything, singular showings are inconsistent and can't be used to measure characters.

What sort of backwards logic led you to this conclusion? It's the exact opposite.

No, what is in the comics is truth.

No, you were clear on being subservient to moderation rulings.

Who knows and cares? But as you think all comics are stupid and inconsistent, you don't like them. Period.

Straw man.

Just because I don't like part of them. Doesn't mean I hate everything about them, and that I don't like some things about them.

So then everyone in comics is superhuman. Karate kid has never been superhuman BTW.

It doesn't matter what the databooks or writers say. What he does clearly paints him as blatantly superhuman.

No, he isn't.

Yes, he is.

Yes, they really do.

Yet, you're complaining about me going "no you" when you did that here.

Originally posted by cdtm
'
😂 **** Lord Rand anyways. ******* doesn't know how to relax.

God damn, I'm a lightweight...

Profiled.

It'll be hard to get back to the Church of Rand after that! 😂

I only hate abhi. Always have, from the start.

Your start was in 2011.

Pr's hated him since 2004... even though abhi made his #1 canon kmc appearance in 2011, some months before you.

I joined just to express my hate.

Originally posted by Sharivan
They don't need to know. We see that kind of collateral damage. That giant monster was completely disintegrated.

No we don't. A hydrogen bomb does more than destroy a monster.

Something that huge, and nothing was left behind in the wake of that destruction?

Still no hydrogen bomb level power. Ergo hyperbole.

The better question is why are you here? If not simply to repeat the same ad nauseam.

It amuses me.

Whereas you are a broken record who doesn't address anything.

So stop replying to me. Concede the last word.

A blatant lie, and something that you yourself don't agree with. As seen in the Character Ownage thread.

There are always exceptions to the rules.

So you say, and so you haven't done anything to prove that.

Of course I have.

What sort of backwards logic led you to this conclusion? It's the exact opposite.

No it isn't. Surfer can destroy planets and then this happens.

We know Surfer can't even destroy a forest with his all out attacks before exhausting himself.

Or exhausts himself destroying a space ship.

And "east cost destroying" space ship was beyond even his scope to destroy.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/GalactusTheDevourer1-32.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/GalactusTheDevourer1-33.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/GalactusTheDevourer1-34.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/GalactusTheDevourer1-35.jpg
http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k508/abhilegend/Marvel/GalactusTheDevourer1-36.jpg

Clearly Surfer is below forest level and below Iron Fist in power.

Heck, Iron Man, Thor and Surfer's combined power was compared to a hydrogen bomb.

Clearly they are as powerful as Iron Fist in combination.

No, you were clear on being subservient to moderation rulings.

But then I saw how making your own rules is so much better.

Straw man.

Nope.

Just because I don't like part of them. Doesn't mean I hate everything about them, and that I don't like some things about them.

Of course you hate all of them. Every comic is inconsistent and stupid and doesn't makes sense.

It doesn't matter what the databooks or writers say. What he does clearly paints him as blatantly superhuman.

But he isn't superhuman. Deal with it.

Yes, he is.

No he isn't.

Yet, you're complaining about me going "no you" when you did that here.

I'm better than you so it works for me and not for you.