Iron Fist/w Prep vs Batman, Cassandra Cain, & Nightwing

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If a fight happened, it happened. Same with Midnighter, Batman, deadpool.

Just because we don't like it, doesn't mean we can ignore it.

Okay then, explain how those fights make sense without using common sense and basic reasoning. How was Batman so fast he could dodge Green Lantern's energy beams? How could Batman disorient, and hurt Wonder Woman? How could he keep up with, and tag the Flash? How could he beat all of them at once without having neither the speed or strength necessary to do so?

Originally posted by Sharivan
How was Batman so fast he could dodge Green Lantern's energy beams?

Originally posted by Galan007
Which instance are you referring to here?

Confidential.

He's talking about that time when Batman used Aquaman as a shield against Hal's beam.

Oh, okay.

I ask because he dodged Power Ring's blast as well(and Power Ring was trying to kill him):

In the end, it just boils down to this:

Bruce can do all this 'impossible' shit... cuz he the goddamn Batman! 👆

Shariv: It's retarded. Only Iron Fist can do stuff like that.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Shariv: It's retarded. Only Iron Fist can do stuff like that.

Cuz super powers.

If Iron Fist punched out a dragon with zero chi amping, I'd call bs too. 😉 (Yes, I believe killing the undying dragon required chi amping.)

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Shariv: It's retarded. Only Iron Fist can do stuff like that.

StiltmanFTW:He's Batman so he can do anything even when he has nothing outside of his fights to actually support that. So, I am going to use a no limit fallacy and say he has no limitations.

Anyway, that's a straw man on your part.

I made it explicitly clear that it made sense for Iron Fist because he actually has instances where he is blatantly superhuman outside of his showings over other characters.

Batman has no excuse except "I am Batman." Which is not an excuse it's the writers being idiots.

In this case Batman is omnipotent, and can therefore beat any fictional character ever.

Yes, even the Presence and TOAA.

It's because it's "Batman" after all.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Which makes it problematic to use him within a versus context. if he has so few feats outside of his showings over other charters.

cool, since i'm not the one who brought him up and touted it as a great feat. 👆

It's established in the very first scan there that it is Black Tarantula.

http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/29398483/Power_Man_and_Iron_Fist_2016-_002-008.jpg.html

i didn't say it WASN'T him. i said it didn't SEEM like him given how weak he was and how off his speech pattern was. big difference and makes me think the writer didn't really know much of his prior history which would explain the ridiculousness of the fight.

No explain why you think that using evidence to justify Black Tarantula's showings over other characters.

wth? i already addressed this--he doesn't have many appearances but the ones he has, in particular vs spidey are enough to convince me this fight is ridiculous and should be thrown out.

Due to the fact that Batman has nothing outside his showings over other characters that justifies it in any way. Which was my reasoning. What's yours?

because he has repeatedly, over the course of years, done similar things to high level characters. that's my reasoning. i like my reasoning better. 👆

Okay then, why was it ridiculous? Also, don't say "it wasn't Black Tarantula."

already explained precisely--it is ridiculous because he LITERALLY no sold, completely tanked, full on shots from spiderman. IF didn't even need teh IF to ko him in a couple panels. ridiculous barely describes that fight.

Show me his feats outside of his showings over other characters that justifies him being faster than light, and splitting planets in half with his fists.

why on earth would i have to? the fights speak for themselves. i mean he's survived multiple gunshot wounds, stabbings, explosions a million times in his history. he's beat down parademons, amazons, grabbed impulse, smacked kid flash, taken the rings from hal and kyle before they know they are gone, smashed through steel doors, survives falls from 30 story buildings with his agility and cloak, explosions that would kill anyone, moves so fast people think he teleports, etc..... here, you gonna hand wave away ALL of these?

https://www.reddit.com/r/BatmanMegaRT/comments/3m2x04/combat_feats_1v1/

your definition of PIS is different from mine, hence we will never agree on this issue. which is fine by me. just don't make it seem like your opinion carries any more weight at all than mine does, or anyone else's who posts here.

Which I already answered, and the response that was given back to me was "well, Batman does some weird things so obviously no limit to his abilities and everything he does is justifiable."

because he's done it over and over and over again.

Which is a load of horseshit.

you say that like your OPINION is in someway conclusive. it is absolutely NOT. but you are welcome to it.

Particularly since this only applies to Batman, and no one else in this thread. Showing yet another double standard.

bullsh!t.

No, it isn't.

yes it is. see how easy this is.

His popularity allows him to do far better against characters he has no right to be fighting.

iyo. stop touting your opinion like fact how about?

Yes, because Spiderman isn't the one who taken down entire helicarriers in a single blow. Spiderman isn't the one who hit so hard he destroy interdimensional portals. Spiderman isn't the one who can destroy entire buildings with his punches.

not sure if serious...?

Okay, that's your subjective opinion.

👆

That's not the point which is flying over your head. In comic books fights almost never make sense. You can't pick and choose which ones are acceptable for no reason.

of course i can. wtf? and apparently the thing flying over YOUR head is that that is PRECISELY what YOU are doing, hand-waving away everything you don't like while somehow claiming your knowledge of feats 'outside' of fights justifies using or not using whatever you want. lol hypocritical much?

You need something outside of those fights that justifies it. [/B]

you keep saying that, but no, i really don't. at all--though in batman's history, he has more than enough feats to justify his fighting feats.

bottomline--this isn't a debate anymore. it's simply you THINKING none of batman's feats make sense and hand waving them away. goody for you. you're welcome to your opinion. just don't preach it like your opinion is fact and everyone should step in line. cuz it sure as sh!t isn't my opinion.

you're free to have the last word btw, but i'm done "debating" this with you. IMO the team still wins this and batman alone would be a great fight for danny.

Originally posted by Galan007
Oh, okay.

I ask because he dodged Power Ring's blast as well(and Power Ring was trying to kill him):

In the end, it just boils down to this:

Bruce can do all this 'impossible' shit... cuz he the goddamn Batman! 👆

/thread

Originally posted by Sharivan
StiltmanFTW:He's Batman so he can do anything even when he has nothing outside of his fights to actually support that. So, I am going to use a no limit fallacy and say he has no limitations.

Anyway, that's a straw man on your part.

I made it explicitly clear that it made sense for Iron Fist because he actually has instances where he is blatantly superhuman outside of his showings over other characters.

Batman has no excuse except "I am Batman." Which is not an excuse it's the writers being idiots.

In this case Batman is omnipotent, and can therefore beat any fictional character ever.

Yes, even the Presence and TOAA.

It's because it's "Batman" after all.

Batman doesn't exist. He's fictional. So he can do whatever the writers want.

If we apply logic and common sense to comics, none of it makes sense. Why have one rule for them, and another for Batman? The X-gene males no sense. Radioactive spiders make no sense. Aliens from Krypton make no sense.

But we allow it.

Originally posted by leonidas
you keep saying that, but no, i really don't. at all--though in batman's history, he has more than enough feats to justify his fighting feats.

Show me Batman punching a planet so hard it explodes. Show me Batman moving faster than light normally, and on an everyday basis outside of his showings over other characters.

bottomline--this isn't a debate anymore.

Bottom line, you're incapable of being reasoned with.

it's simply you THINKING none of batman's feats make sense

Due to the fact that none of his fights here make sense. No one has posted any feats of what he has fought that even suggests that's actually capable of this.

and hand waving them away.

You mean how like you have been hand waving everything Iron Fist can do? Well, the difference I support what he does with things outside of his showings over other characters.

goody for you. you're welcome to your opinion.

It's not an opinion. It's an objective fact.

Okay then, fine.

Batman is omnipotent from now on. After all, since he is "Batman" there's nothing he can't do.

He beats every character in fiction.

just don't preach it like your opinion is fact and everyone should step in line. cuz it sure as sh!t isn't my opinion.

That's nice but it's not an opinion. It's what we see Daniel Rand do outside of his fights. It's what we know he is capable of.

you're free to have the last word btw, but i'm done "debating" this with you. IMO the team still wins this and batman alone would be a great fight for danny.

Alright fine, but know that it is only your opinion. Which happens to be very, very wrong.

Originally posted by leonidas
i didn't say it WASN'T him. i said it didn't SEEM like him given how weak he was and how off his speech pattern was. big difference and makes me think the writer didn't really know much of his prior history which would explain the ridiculousness of the fight.

Cage takes so much time to beat Nagan, while IF stomps BT?

Yeah, right.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman doesn't exist. He's fictional. So he can do whatever the writers want.

Sure, but not in a versus context where we're trying to being objective and figure out what makes actual sense. Since the writers obviously don't.

If we apply logic and common sense to comics, none of it makes sense. Why have one rule for them, and another for Batman? The X-gene males no sense. Radioactive spiders make no sense. Aliens from Krypton make no sense.

No, we should have the same rule for all of them. Simply post feats that Batman has outside of his showings over other characters that supports them. It's that easy, and what I did for Iron Fist. I would expect the rest of you to show me the same consideration.

But we allow it.

When it's clearly retarded even within the context of the comic books themselves.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Sure, but not in a versus context where we're trying to being objective and figure out what makes actual sense. Since the writers obviously don't.

No, we should have the same rule for all of them. Simply post feats that Batman has outside of his showings over other characters that supports them. It's that easy, and what I did for Iron Fist. I would expect the rest of you to show me the same consideration.

When it's clearly retarded even within the context of the comic books themselves.

But the writers are the ones who...give us feats.

Otherwise, you may as well just rely on handbooks and stats.

The feats you have posted for Iron Fist....why can't we say the writers have no idea what they're writing about?

Spiderman vs Firelord is a feat. Not a good feat, but it's a feat.

But correct me if I'm wrong, I think Sharivan's looking for internal consistancy. Iron Fist isn't Batman, and Batman isn't Iron Fist. Just like Superman isn't Batman.

The difference is, one has powers, and the other doesn't.

That doesn't mean Iron Fist gets away with anything, any more then Superman or Batman. But internally, it's established that Batman is a non super power street leveler genius. Supernan is established as a planet mover, and Danny Rand is established as a martial artist with the powers of an immortal dragon.

So the question is, by what internal logic does Batman KO Wonder Woman? Comic or not, they do have their internal logic, otherwise there would he nothing to argue. And a term like PIS or Spiderman vs Firelord would be meaningless. Bada may as well close the rules section down.

Originally posted by cdtm
Spiderman vs Firelord is a feat. Not a good feat, but it's a feat.

But correct me if I'm wrong, I think Sharivan's looking for internal consistancy. Iron Fist isn't Batman, and Batman isn't Iron Fist. Just like Superman isn't Batman.

The difference is, one has powers, and the other doesn't.

That doesn't mean Iron Fist gets away with anything, any more then Superman or Batman. But internally, it's established that Batman is a non super power street leveler genius. Supernan is established as a planet mover, and Danny Rand is established as a martial artist with the powers of an immortal dragon.

So the question is, by what internal logic does Batman KO Wonder Woman? Comic or not, they do have their internal logic, otherwise there would he nothing to argue. And a term like PIS or Spiderman vs Firelord would be meaningless. Bada may as well close the rules section down.

I get Shari's point, I really do.

But the problem is, as you say, he's established as being XYZ.

He's also established as doing crazy shite. With the internal logic being that he's Batman...its actually written as such (see Galan's scan). So its consistent.

Bats has sooo many examples of him being pretty superhuman, that its established he can do it. He can vanish from Superman's senses. Gotham's senses. Hurt beings he has no business hurting...and not just once or twice, either.

At what point do you cut it off, then?

Super skill is nothing new in comics.

Arcane nerve strikes, rolling with Class 100 punches, simulating super-speed, striking super-hard materials...

"New, more durable suit, Iron Man? No biggie, I trained a lot, my karate is even more formidable now." - Mandy

IF's abilities are largely skill-based, too. So there should be no trouble understanding Batman's capabilities.

Originally posted by Sharivan
Show me Batman punching a planet so hard it explodes. Show me Batman moving faster than light normally, and on an everyday basis outside of his showings over other characters.

planet busting? lol he doesn't have to bust planets to fight the way he does or the characters he does. galan already showed you bats dodging light-based attacks. he dodges lasers all the time....nothing to do with who he is fighting.

Bottom line, you're incapable of being reasoned with.

are you f****** kidding me? 😂 this from the guy who portrays himself as the final word regarding what is and isn't acceptable in the comic book world?? sigh....

Due to the fact that none of his fights here make sense. No one has posted any feats of what he has fought that even suggests that's actually capable of this.

and yet he performs similarly over and over, year after year, against characters WELL above his own power level. just last month (again, as shown by galan) he pulled a disappearing act on a superman level being--gotham. of course, he's done the same to superman himself:

http://s289.photobucket.com/user/darknight2k/media/Stealth/jlmidsummernightmare3-batmilitarystealth1.jpg.html

http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll223/darknight2k/Stealth/?action=view&current=jlmidsummernightmare3-batmilitarystealth2.jpg

make sense? of course not. still viable forum feats? of course they are. and hell, those aren't even his best stealth feats:

http://batmanfeats.blogspot.ca/p/stealth.html

ALL pis?? like all the fights i posted?i could show you 100 scans of his MA ability, nerve strikes to take out grundy-level villains, speed and durability feats way WAY beyond human, but you'd just say they're stupid and hand wave them away. you asked for scans to support his fights, i've given PLENTY, but you likely haven't looked through them, or just don't like them so don't count them. a 15 second search will show you literally DOZENS of feats that support the vast majority of his fights. but again, if you don't like them, they wouldn't matter.

but i'm the one who can't be reasoned with. 👆

hell, in the scan galan showed, the COMIC flat out acknowledges that batman does the impossible. that is the nature of his character. but we're all supposed to take YOUR word that what he does is stupid and should therefore be thrown out? or if we don't we're all morons who subscribe to a no limits fallacy regarding him because we're all too dumb to know where to draw a line?? 😂 that level of arrogance in a comic book forum is pretty hilarious....

You mean how like you have been hand waving everything Iron Fist can do?[/B]

and THIS is simply a straight up lie. the ONLY thing i called pis was BT's PORTRAYAL in that silly fight scene. hell, i didn't even call pis on danny! lol so gtfo with saying i hand waved anything away. 👆

(oh, and maybe the wrecking crew i guess though danny didn't really do much in that fight. besides, given your views on what should and shouldn't count, i'd assume you'd be with me on that one, given the history of the crew's best feats.)

We have learned so much in this thread vin