Candidates for Tier 9 combatants?

Started by DarthAnt665 pages

Skywalker was dominating Dooku even before his "Zonakin" state. 😬

The accolades putting Windu and Dooku on the same level are generally all prior to the start of the Clone Wars (with Yoda's musing as an exception). Windu destroyed over 100,000 B1 battle droids even prior to the Outer Rim Sieges, let alone other models. I operate under the assumption he grew in power. Besides, he's stated as tier nine, and Dooku's state as tier eight, so I have no clue why you're trying to dispute this when it's already set in stone for this thread.

Windu is only Sidious level (9) in the unique situation of RotS. Normally he isn't near that point, as evidenced by, like, every other fight he's ever been in.

I highly doubt a real Tier 9 needs all their prowess to beat Ventress.

People actually take that shit quote seriously? Windu clearly wasn't giving it his all against her in the comic, kek.

Info that gives in-depth look is good and all, but when it contradicts what factually happen, it should be taken with a grain of salt.

Irrelevant. There's also his fights against Bulq, Depa, Dooku, Talzin and Maul with which to establish that he sucks.

Nice goal post move. Instead of admitting your initial argument was shit[It was], you create another I couldn't care less about.

😂

It wasn't shit, I just have no particular interest in defending it. It's merely a single instance in the complete trend of Windu being a very solidly Tier 8 duelist. Maul isn't gonna call Yoda + back up a real fight like he did Windu and Aayallaya, he'd cack his pants. Sidious personally said Talzin is a worse duelist than Dooku and pooped on her head easily, while Mace struggled with a weaker version. Mace is no better a duelist than Dooku is.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Skywalker was dominating Dooku even before his "Zonakin" state. 😬

Dominating? Let's take a look at the Revenge of the Sith novelization, shall we? Obi-Wan & Anakin found it necessary to sucker Dooku in a trap which costed him a valuable amount of energy to then both, at the same time, fight him. Anakin in this scenario had every advantage possible, he faced an opponent who already losted a great deal of energy, had Obi-Wan to help defeat Dooku and this same Obi-Wan would cover any mistakes he made. Yet Dooku could still land numerous hits on both Obi-Wan and Anakin, even to the point that the former could take out Obi-Wan while Anakin could any watch helplessly. The only thing Anakin put against that was that he could pressure a Dooku who had direct tactic, had already lost a good amount of energy and was also focusing on Obi-Wan, and even then Dooku could change his tactics to the point that he could let the fight shift in his favor again. Does that seem to you the makings of a tier 9 fighter like Yoda, who dominated the Count without any favorable circumstances or help?

The accolades putting Windu and Dooku on the same level are generally all prior to the start of the Clone Wars (with Yoda's musing as an exception). Windu destroyed over 100,000 B1 battle droids even prior to the Outer Rim Sieges, let alone other models. I operate under the assumption he grew in power.

You assume that Windu would make a huge jump from tier 8 to 9 during the Clone Wars? Well it's quite obvious that the Windu that fought Sidious was performing under a unique set of circumstances perfect for his fighting style. Gillard never made a distinction between a normal circumstances Mace and the one we saw in RotS while the RotS novel, which was edited by George himself, does. That this Windu, under very specific circumstances, is a tier 9 duelist is kind of undisputed since we did see him take on Sidous but under normal circumstances? No, everything points in the other direction.

Besides, he's stated as tier nine, and Dooku's state as tier eight, so I have no clue why you're trying to dispute this when it's already set in stone for this thread.

Because Gillard's quote is made under very specific circumstances, he's only looking at the movies without acknowledging the circumstances, which other sources actually do, of the fights and the character's level of performance. This context is very different from the context used on the boards where 'we' prefer to rank characters who are under the influence of the same circumstances.

If this thread is only made to blindly follow Gillard's context and neglect any of the above mentioned circumstances then you're absolutely right and I will take back everything I said, no problem. However if this thread also leaves room for a critical look at Gillard's system then I stand by everything I've said, it's easy to pick a quote, rip it from it's context and make a conlcusion which is the complete opposite from the general accepted opinion and call it a day.

Note that I don't say Gillard's system is 'wrong' and everything he says is abolsute trash, no, his way of ranking characters is right form his perspective (under a very specific context) but looking at how characters are normally evaluated and ranked on this board (or CV) then I think I can safely conclude that his way isn't the best way to compare characters.

tl;dr. Try to cut down your arguments to a few sentences.

Assuming you're disputing something:

"Skywalker was all over him.

The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.

He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.

That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat."

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith novelization

That's, like, the ultimate display of lightsaber domination. mmm Skywalker performed better than Yoda against Dooku, easily.

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In regards to Windu, while it's possible Gillard's ranking is referring specifically to his Vaapad state, that's not really the implication behind the quote.

Plus Lucas also says you have to be either Yoda or Windu to compete with Palpatine, which also reinforces the point, unless you think Lucas is factoring Vaapad in there too.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
People actually take that shit quote seriously?

Only a select few at this point, tbh.

No-one cares about the novel. It took Anakin a considerable amount of time to reach that point. In the movie he's losing right up till the end.

Yes Neph, you've voiced your concern about the novel a thousand times.

No one gave a **** every time. No difference for the thousandth and one.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
tl;dr. Try to cut down your arguments to a few sentences.

Assuming you're disputing something:

That's, like, the ultimate display of lightsaber domination. mmm Skywalker performed better than Yoda against Dooku, easily.

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In regards to Windu, while it's possible Gillard's ranking is referring specifically to his Vaapad state, that's not really the implication behind the quote.

Plus Lucas also says you have to be either Yoda or Windu to compete with Palpatine, which also reinforces the point, unless you think Lucas is factoring Vaapad in there too.

Pretty convenient for you 😉

Again, put a quote out of context and you can make it look however you want. At that point, Dooku only just discovered Anakin's true fighting style and lost a good amount of energy because of the Jedi's trap. Funny enough, right after your quote Dooku changes his tactics and takes out both Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, and the only thing that kept Dooku from defeating Anakin was the fact that he needed to ensure Obi-Wan was defeated. So now, add everything up and it's not even close, Dooku was running away from Yoda after the latter launched his full offensive while in the RotS duel he could still take the advantage over the duo when employing the right tactics.

How so? Gillard bases his tiering on what we see from these characters in the movie, that's his base of information and in that movie we only see Windu in these specific circumstances.

Since George actually edited the RotS novel I think he actually does to be honest.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes Neph, you've voiced your concern about the novel a thousand times.

No one gave a **** every time. No difference for the thousandth and one.

Lol, you're trying to use Gillard as a source yet you're ignoring the actual fight choreography that he worked on that shows Dooku blocking Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand, kicking Anakin aside while taking out Obi-Wan and then having the upper hand in a saber lock with him.

Maybe when you're trying to use someone as a source, you should pay attention to his actual work instead of a book he had no involvement in and that's massively different from his version. Just a tip, buddy. 👆

Originally posted by DarthDuelist9
Again, put a quote out of context and you can make it look however you want.

Yawn.

At that point, Dooku only just discovered Anakin's true fighting style

Dooku figured it out prior to the assault. That's enough for any normal combat situation.

and lost a good amount of energy because of the Jedi's trap.

Dooku was using more power to handle Skywalker's attacks than he did throwing Kenobi against a wall. He was fine.

Funny enough, right after your quote Dooku changes his tactics and takes out both Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time,

By seizing advantage of the droid's saving them. 😬 If the droids weren't there, he was dead.

and the only thing that kept Dooku from defeating Anakin was the fact that he needed to ensure Obi-Wan was defeated.

Again, after escaping Skywalker's deadly assault by using the droids. He didn't defeat Skywalker on fair grounds. He got the droids to distract him and then landed a kick. That's not indication of superiority or parity.

So now, add everything up and it's not even close, Dooku was running away from Yoda after the latter launched his full offensive while in the RotS duel he could still take the advantage over the duo when employing the right tactics.

😂 What?

How so? Gillard bases his tiering on what we see from these characters in the movie, that's his base of information and in that movie we only see Windu in these specific circumstances.

Since George actually edited the RotS novel I think he actually does to be honest.


I recall an interview with Gillard in which he rejects the notion he was considering Vaapad for the fights.

http://movieweb.com/star-wars-episode-iii-plot-spoilers/

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BTW, I love how you're bashing me for circumstances, but your argument rests on droids intervening and a desperate kick from Dooku. Pathetic.

To repeat, if not for the droids, Dooku was dead. On neutral grounds, there wouldn't be droids. In other words, Dooku would be dead in a brutal fashion.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Lol, you're trying to use Gillard as a source yet you're ignoring the actual fight choreography that he worked on that shows Dooku blocking Anakin and Obi-Wan with one hand, kicking Anakin aside while taking out Obi-Wan and then having the upper hand in a saber lock with him.

Maybe when you're trying to use someone as a source, you should pay attention to his actual work instead of a book he had no involvement in and that's massively different from his version. Just a tip, buddy. 👆


I don't care for the actual choreography, which is limited in a thousand and one ways. I care for the intent and actual descriptions of what happened.

If you like choreography so much, check out Jensaarai's videos. I'm sure you'll find them great. 😂

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

In regards to Windu, while it's possible Gillard's ranking is referring specifically to his Vaapad state, that's not really the implication behind the quote.

This is a summary of an online chat before the release of RotS and you can find this statement there:

"Mace (Sam) does not use "vaapad" (?) in Ep3, he does what Nick tells him to do for the scene."

Of course, that statement had to be overwritten with the acceptance of the lightsaber forms into canon. Still: Gillard hasn't any claim to expertise regarding those forms, since he probably doesn't even know how they work. So citing him on anything but stunts in the movies is pretty much arbitrary and pointless, not only because of his lack of expertise on the topic - but also because his opinion isn't canon. Honestly, I'd sooner claim EvanNova's tier listing is the more comprehensive piece.

You and Neph should get a room.

And you should take a leaf from ILS, and go back to debating loony toons on Comicvine.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I don't care for the actual choreography, which is limited in a thousand and one ways. I care for the intent and actual descriptions of what happened.

If you like choreography so much, check out Jensaarai's videos. I'm sure you'll find them great. 😂

Not sure you quite understand but, like, Gillard was the fight choreographer. That was his job, for the movies. If he's saying something, that's the context in which he is speaking. That's his sole official capacity. So ignoring that aspect, pretty much just because you want to despite it being more canon than the garbage you're pedaling, is kind of ****ing retarded. If his intent was for Anakin to dominate the fight he's an appalling incompetent because he failed in every respect to show that. You don't think the intent behind the things I mentioned were to show that it was a close fight? Because that's obviously what it is. In the movie. The movie that Gillard worked on. The only thing that you should be paying attention to in respect to Nick Gillard.

Like it or not, the movies are the most important aspects of the PT. They're also the most relevant to Gillard by a nautical mile. Relying on intent and descriptions that have nothing to do with him, while trying to use him in support of those things is ****ing stupid.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Yes Neph, you've voiced your concern about the novel a thousand times.

No one gave a **** every time. No difference for the thousandth and one.


*thousandth and two 👆

Also:

>"movie version of fight doesn't show Anakin's superiority"
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=2m22s

Right... 😂