Darth Tenebrous vs Galen Marek

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
I mean driving Sidious to desperation as the text denotes. And yes, I'm referring to his manipulation of the ISD before his prime.

You're correct, Galen would not be able to accomplish his ISD feat whilst in the midst of combat. He is however capable of throwing back hundreds of droids with a gesture as he demonstrated on Raxus Prime twice. Tenebrous on the other hand was left so occupied by his tasks he was unable to effectively stop Plagueis from resting control of the debris he was holding aloft away from him. His limits are clearly defined. The weather on Naboo was also never attributed to Plagueis's presence despite your fan theories.

With a Force repulse, but then so could Mace Windu... I'd warrant Tenny's feat is still better. Nor did Plagueis rest control of the rocks from Tenebrous, he was simply too preoccupied to react in time to Plagueis pulling down more slabs to crush him. On the other hand the lack of noted strain on Tenny's past suggests this is not in fact, his limit.

And the planet is stated to experience the coldest winter in recent memory within the contexts of Hego's visit, so it is attributed to him lol.

And you understand I've already addressed this faulty argument? What you claim to be "Oneness" occurred after Galen had engaged Sidious in a force lock. We have no idea if Sidious was in "mortal jeopardy" as you put it because Galen sacrificed himself for his friends shortly after they had engaged. All we know is a Galen who had just fought through Vader and Imperial forces was capable of driving him to desperation.

Then please provide your mathematical formula proving such.

I didn't say that. I said that the Force of the explosion was spread out through multiple tunnels and much of the energy generated is being channeled out through the various openings in the tunnel system meaning the energy Tenebrous is blocking is only a small fraction of the total energy of the explosion. Basic logic. 🙂

And while I'll grant you it's likely there were other openings, such openings are typically small, and of course far above ground, so the release they could have afforded would have been minimal with a time frame of seconds, not considerable as you're suggesting.

Originally posted by JKBart
1. Marek obliterates Tenebrous like a worthless pile of shit he is
2. Marek wins with good resistance
3. Mid-way between 1 and 2

👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine can probably one-shot Marek in the same way Valkorion did to Arcann.

That would have been damn useful when Palps was howling in pain.

🙂

Marek would probably blow up the entire cave structure that fell on Tenebrous, lmfao.

Can't respond right now. My dad's stolen the computer away. From the looks of it though this should be a fun debate given some of the errors I'm spotting at a glance. 🙂

Originally posted by ares834
That would have been damn useful when Palps was howling in pain.

🙂

Sidious is definitely kinky. Doesn't change the meaning of the text though.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
"Lascivious (i.e. sexual) pain," you mean?

Palpatine gets his rocks off on weird shit. Don't judge.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Marek would probably blow up the entire cave structure that fell on Tenebrous, lmfao.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ching. I worry for you because I honestly can't tell if you're trolling.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
For someone who believes the TFU novel to be highly exaggerated, I wonder how you reached that conclusion. mmm

Did The Tenebrous Way not clarify that Tenebrous allowed Plaguies to kill him? Or was at least apathetic to Plaguies's assassination attempt? Tenebrous states that he will inevitably die before the "rise of the shadow":

"His own death was clearly foretold, entirely inevitable, and it would precede the rise of the shadow by decades. His fate was explicit in the numbers, and numbers do not lie."

And mentions in two instances how he was just waiting for Plaguies to kill him:

"...he wouldn't have wasted all these decades waiting for his foolish apprentice Plagueis to do him in."
"He would allow his own apprentice to kill him too soon..."

Tenebrous wanted Plaguies to kill him so he could invade Plaguies's body and wait for the creation of the chosen one, who he would then possess. He knew his death was inevitable, and so instead of preventing it, he embraced it to further his plans. I don't think his not preventing Plaguies from murdering him is a clear indication of inability.

I agree with what Beni has been saying, and would just like to add that Tenebrous was able to shield himself from the pain of having a fatal,pierced lung with his command of the force:
"Shielded from suffering by his command of the Force..."
Seems like a good indicator of force mastery and maybe even a pain tolerance.

👆 I didn't catch that.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
I abandoned that stance a couple months ago.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Pre-prime? I don't recall Marek experiencing any significant power boosts after performing that feat.

With a Force repulse, but then so could Mace Windu... I'd warrant Tenny's feat is still better. Nor did Plagueis rest control of the rocks from Tenebrous, he was simply too preoccupied to react in time to Plagueis pulling down more slabs to crush him. On the other hand the lack of noted strain on Tenny's past suggests this is not in fact, his limit.

And the planet is stated to experience the coldest winter in recent memory within the contexts of Hego's visit, so it is attributed to him lol.After which Sidious survived his suicide explosion relatively unscathed - despite being at the centre of it. And before that Sidious was enjoying the experience, it altogether being stated that Marek was "no match" for him. So despite his desperation, if that is even accurate, Marek remained unable to truly harm him. Furthermore this is within the contexts of Marek causing Sidious to attack himself with his own lightning, so this isn't even a real representation of Galen's own power.Tenny + Feats > Marek. 👆You did though, you're arguing that the kinetic and heat energy of the explosion would be diminished, however being funnelled through a system of caverns and tunnels would arguably have only created a build up of pressure, intensifying the blast. And of course, despite being dispersed amongst various caverns, it still possessed the power to bring down the entire mine...

And while I'll grant you it's likely there were other openings, such openings are typically small, and of course far above ground, so the release they could have afforded would have been minimal with a time frame of seconds, not considerable as you're suggesting.

He grows in power considerably throughout the novel often within the span of a few missions. It's indicated that he grows yet against when, upon shedding his loyalty to Vader, he makes a breakthrough during meditation in which he experiences powerful visions of foresight which he is able to focus on a specific subject ( I.E. the Death Star ). Note that he was incapable of such before this point.

With a force repulse? I think not.

"Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the temple's hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them. Deactivating his lightsaber, he took a deep breath. With one mighty exhalation of power, he blasted all of them-those in pieces and those approaching with needle-tipped fingers and vibrosaws upraised-out of the foyer doors."

It goes on to describe Galen creating a ground quake and artificial hurricane by continuing to blast them.

"Then he blasted the rubbish piles after them. He kept pushing until a dark cloud toured out over Raxus Prime's hideous landscape-an artificial hurricane full of droid golems. When the foyer was clear, the apprentice straightened. He was no longer pushing with the Force, but the floor beneath him shook nonetheless."

As you are probably very well aware of a repulse is not a prolonged blast. 🙂

If you needed any further evidence, well, here it is.

"It was already over, but the Core still had some fight left. Hundreds of slave droids converged on the apprentice, hoping to crush him under their combined weight before he could reach the nearest processor. He blew them away with a single push and slashed open the processor’s casing. Ignoring the hot metal edges, he pushed his left hand into the workings inside." - The Force Unleashed.

It clearly states he blows them away with a single push.

I reread the passage, I think it's fair to say that Tenebrous's powers were taxed to the point that he was unable to sense or barring that unable to react to Plagueis's betrayal in time which would indicate the tasks that occupied him took a decent amount of his power to accomplish even if he did not demonstrate visible strain.

Just because two events happen to coincide does not make it a certainty or even a likelihood that said event occurred because of the other ( I.E. Plagueis's arrival on Naboo ). I attribute this to what I assumed was the rather obvious fact that Galen didn't want the Rogue Shadow to be destroyed in the resulting explosion. Given Sidious was described as desperate it doesn't really matter whether he was enjoying it or even deriving sexual pleasure from it. Galen pushed him to a point where Palpatine had to strain in his efforts to defeat him. A character ultimately being no match for an opponent does not indicate that they were blown out of the water as we can see clearly in Yoda vs Sidious. See my above point about why Marek held back the power of his repulse. Given Galen was constantly reflecting Sidious's lightning back at him to the point it was coursing through and around the two of them in the same manner as Yoda and the fact that both the game and novel depict Galen as pitting his own power against Sidious I'd imagine it is a pretty accurate reflection of his power.

The scenes for comparison.

I'm saying that the distance the blast is travelling would diminish its destructive energy. Not that travelling through the caves would diminish it.

Given the number of caverns, which we know are quite large as you pointed out in your earlier posts, and the amount of openings a cave system like that is likely to have the fraction of energy being poured out of that one opening Tenebrous is shielding would be negligible in comparison to the overall energy of the entire blast as it's being diminished by travelling through the open space that occupies the distance from the origin point of the blast and the openings that lead out of the cave systems. Not to mention the open space of the caverns themselves which again as you yourself mentioned are enormous. 😛

The opening Tenebrous shielded wasn't small and was itself below ground. Why wouldn't there be other openings like this throughout the cave system?

Originally posted by Solar Power
Did The Tenebrous Way not clarify that Tenebrous allowed Plaguies to kill him? Or was at least apathetic to Plaguies's assassination attempt? Tenebrous states that he will inevitably die before the "rise of the shadow":

"His own death was clearly foretold, entirely inevitable, and it would precede the rise of the shadow by decades. His fate was explicit in the numbers, and numbers do not lie."

And mentions in two instances how he was just waiting for Plaguies to kill him:

"...he wouldn't have wasted all these decades waiting for his foolish apprentice Plagueis to do him in."
"He would allow his own apprentice to kill him too soon..."

Tenebrous wanted Plaguies to kill him so he could invade Plaguies's body and wait for the creation of the chosen one, who he would then possess. He knew his death was inevitable, and so instead of preventing it, he embraced it to further his plans. I don't think his not preventing Plaguies from murdering him is a clear indication of inability.

I agree with what Beni has been saying, and would just like to add that Tenebrous was able to shield himself from the pain of having a fatal,pierced lung with his command of the force:
"Shielded from suffering by his command of the Force..."
Seems like a good indicator of force mastery and maybe even a pain tolerance.

Fair point. I retract that section of my argument. 🙂

Mark might be able to take it

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palpatine can probably one-shot Marek in the same way Valkorion did to Arcann.

Palpatine toying with Marek, no selling all of his attacks, one-shotting Galen when he got serious, and Marek needing Oneness to force Palpatine to get an orgasm clearly means he's better than Tenebrous.

Tenebrous wins.

@Syn,

1. That's not I meant, I meant that it wasn't performed with just a standard Force push but, as it's described, a "might exhalation of power" (which I assume was also the case for the second feat), or rather something like this:

So yeah, a Windu-tier showing. Moving on.

2. A decent amount of power yes, but hardly his limit. His inability to react to the velocity of Plagueis attack being a testament to the latter's strength, not the former's weakness. Regardless there is the added possibility that he allowed it to happen.

3. Within the contexts of a narrative it would serve no purpose to note upon something that was entirely coincidence and therefore irrelevant. Cause and effect being far more a likelihood that a freak weather event.

4. Those are some pretty pictures (be a dear and resize them next time). But you continue to ignore the most critical factor, namely that the only reason Sidious' lightning was reflected back on him was because of Marek's sheer proximity, to the point at which he grabbed his body, creating an instant feedback loop. Not because like Yoda, he was containing and pushing back his power. Instead he was evidently doing a pretty shitty job of that, as Marek is described as in excruciating pain:

Without hesitation, he stepped between Kota and the Emperor, taking the full brunt of the Sith lightning into his own body.

The pain was incredible, searing every nerve back to its individual cells, skewering each of them on white-hot needles. He had never before felt anything like this. He wanted to recoil from the source, to curl into a ball and let unconsciousness take the pain away, but somehow he stayed standing, seeing the world through a crackling blue light, and even took a step toward the Emperor.

There is no proof that Marek could have achieved such an effect with his lighting alone, and without causing his own death, instead Sidious was quite literally laughing it off to begin with (whereas Marek was one-shotted in the DS ending), and despite your theories, evidently didn't make an attempt to restrain his final burst of energy when in the comic the Rogue Shadow is almost consumed by the explosion, and would have been if it had not fled.

So where does that leave us? With an individual who is "no match" for Sidious, yeah, which semantics aside typically indicates that X does not compare, that X is not in Y's league. Not so much the case for an individual more powerful than Palpatine's pre-prime master. And never is Yoda described in these terms.

5. And yet the blast reached them in seconds:

Overhead, hawk-bats took panicked flight from their roosting places in the stippled ceiling. Natural light in the far distance prompted the two Sith to race for the grotto; but, even so, they were a moment late.

The gas explosion caught up with them just as they were entering the light-filled cavity at the top of the escarpment. From deep in the tunnel resounded a squealing electronic wail, and at the same time, almost as if the cave system were gasping for breath, a searing wind tore down from a perforation in the grotto's arched ceiling through which the ship had entered. A muffled but ground-heaving detonation followed; then a roiling fireball that was the labyrinth's scorching exhalation. Whirling to the tunnel they had just exited and managing somehow to remain on his feet, Tenebrous conjured a Force shield with his waving arms that met the fireball and contained it, thousands of flaming hawk-bats spiraling within the tumult like windblown embers.

Nor do I remember the opening in question to be described as large, it was a tunnel, regardless it wasn't above ground because it wasn't the exit, obviously, that would be the "perforation" in the ceiling, a perforation being a small hole. 👆