Originally posted by Beniboybling
@Syn,1. That's not I meant, I meant that it wasn't performed with just a standard Force push but, as it's described, a "might exhalation of power" (which I assume was also the case for the second feat), or rather something like this:
So yeah, a Windu-tier showing. Moving on.
2. A decent amount of power yes, but hardly his limit. His inability to react to the velocity of Plagueis attack being a testament to the latter's strength, not the former's weakness. Regardless there is the added possibility that he allowed it to happen.
3. Within the contexts of a narrative it would serve no purpose to note upon something that was entirely coincidence and therefore irrelevant. Cause and effect being far more a likelihood that a freak weather event.
4. Those are some pretty pictures (be a dear and resize them next time). But you continue to ignore the most critical factor, namely that the only reason Sidious' lightning was reflected back on him was because of Marek's sheer proximity, to the point at which he grabbed his body, creating an instant feedback loop. Not because like Yoda, he was containing and pushing back his power. Instead he was evidently doing a pretty shitty job of that, as Marek is described as in excruciating pain😖imply put it was through a reckless and suicidal act that he was able to force Sidious to "desperation", much like the ISD feat hardly combat applicable unless he intends to an hero, and only by using Palpatine's own power against him. Yet despite that still failed to do Palpatine real harm.
There is no proof that Marek could have achieved such an effect with his lighting alone, and without causing his own death, instead Sidious was quite literally laughing it off to begin with (whereas Marek was one-shotted in the DS ending), and despite your theories, evidently didn't make an attempt to restrain his final burst of energy when in the comic the Rogue Shadow is almost consumed by the explosion, and would have been if it had not fled.
So where does that leave us? With an individual who is "no match" for Sidious, yeah, which semantics aside typically indicates that X does not compare, that X is not in Y's league. Not so much the case for an individual more powerful than Palpatine's pre-prime master. And never is Yoda described in these terms.
5. And yet the blast reached them in seconds😖plit-seconds even if you consider the speed at which they were travelling, in other words it filled those massive caverns nigh instantaneously, that's no sufficient time for the blast to be diminished or escape through other exits, especially when we account for the build of pressure.
Nor do I remember the opening in question to be described as large, it was a tunnel, regardless it wasn't above ground because it wasn't the exit, obviously, that would be the "perforation" in the ceiling, a perforation being a small hole. 👆
1. The first one he was able to perform after taking a deep breath. This is pretty much him at the beggining of the game.
Regardless of your assumptions the second doesn't even go that far saying he hurled hundreds of them back with a single push.
This makes sense considering Galen has had several growths in power by this point and therefore it would be logical that he'd be able to accomplish a similar task with less strain. I.E. he can casually do so rather then having to take a deep breath whilst fighting off droids.
Except Galen in the first feat actually clears the entire area of droids sweeping them out of the room before ( similar to Satele ) sustaining the blast and causing them to form an artificial hurricane and in the second feat he outright destroys them. Mace simply pushes the weight of the droids he's facing back several meters.
2. Fair enough.
3. They've done the same with Sidious as well. It's narrative dramatization. A neat trick to make your scene look cool but not an indication that a character is able to manipulate the weather like Storm from the X Men. This is honestly done all the time in fantasy mediums as well such as the Stormlight Archives. Even looking at logically it wouldn't make sense. Plagueis is trying to keep his presence hidden. Why would he potentially alert the Jedi to his existence by expending power on altering the weather patters of a planet with mostly mild weather? It wouldn't make sense especially given his methodical nature.
4. Were you purposely ignoring the scan? Galen hasn't grabbed onto Sidious at that point. Much of the lock occurs with Galen moving forward against Sidious's lightning stream as he absorbs the lightning. When they actually touch it causes the force lightning to stream through both of them. As I said though the game and comic depict this as Galen and Sidious's force power coming together and clashing. The novel describe the lightning being fueled by both Sidious's and Galen's desperation ( I.E. they're both powering it ). They both obviously have force shields around themselves that are allowing them not be disintegrated but they can't full shield themselves from the pain. They very fact that Sidious is desperate implies that he's afraid Galen might outlast him in the Force lock.
Lol. He's feeling pain, yes, but he's moving forward against it and nothing suggests the lightning is doing lethal damage after being dampened by his shields. The game sows Galen moving forward against Sidious's lightning stream with his own. The novel describes Galen moving forward against Sidious's lightning before grabbing onto him and causing the lightning to course through them both with it ultimately being a combined effort on both their parts. The comic takes the middle ground showing two force energy bubbles colliding and it causing a maelstrom of lightning coursing around and through the two. Whichever version you're taking into account it's pretty clear that Galen shows parity. In the novel he's diminishing the power of Sidious's lightning down to the point that it can only cause him pain and still moving forward against it before adding his own power to it.
"The Sith lightning spread to engulf the two of them, fueled by both their desperations." - The Force Unleashed.
He's essentially taking Sidious's full power and diminishing its power to the point it can only cause pain which I think you would agree would be most of its power given the potency Sidious has demonstrated and what he should be capable of.
Granted he's not fully absorbing the blast like Yoda did with Dooku's but given Galen had just fought through Vader and Imperial Forces I doubt he's going to be at a level where he's superior to Sidious by the margin Yoda was to Dooku whatever he is capable of in peak condition.
The non canon DS ending that has no bearing on anything.
I was actually just about to bring up that scan. You're exactly right. The Rogue Shadow is about to be hit with the power of that explosion as it remains stationary. Juno and Rahm then proceed to have an exchange that lasts several moments. Unless that explosion was travelling about as fast as a sloth the ship was definitely hit by the blast. Now, I don't know about you but I'd say taking his and Sidious's combined energy and causing an explosion with it would have utterly obliterated the Rogue Shadow had Galen not scaled back the power of the explosion.
An individual who was ultimately no match for Sidious ( as Yoda was ) after having fought through Vader and Imperial Forces you mean. And I would absolutely LOVE to put semantics aside but that seems to be all you can base your arguments off of. You understand very well that being "no match" for someone and "ULTIMATELY" being no match for someone are far different things. If someone is "no match" it usually implies that they had no chance but if someone is "ULTIMATELY" no match it usually implies that the individual came close but ultimately fell short. This is not taking into account that Galen had expended a good amount of energy beforehand and his ultimate defeat occurred because he was saving Juno and the Rebels.
As for Yoda the RotS novel has this to say.
"This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just—
didn't—
have it." - Revenge of the Sith.
I don't know what there is to say here. Yoda ultimately was no match for Sidious even though he put up a good fight. The statement in regards to Galen refers to the outcome. It does not presume to assign a level of difficulty Sidious had doing so. To assess that we look at the text and what actually occurred.
5. You understand that energy diminishes by the distance it travels and not by the amount of time it took to get somewhere correct? Also I'm saying if the explosion filled other chambers or reached other exits before reaching the one Plagueis and Tenebrous were in that's where much of the excess energy would go. I take issue with your assumption that the cavern Plagueis and Tenebrous had reached was the closest cavern or opening to the explosions epicenter.
How did they land the ship in their then? :/
I said I'd respond to Syn at some point, and despite the dissappointing lack of dick pics, here we go:
To begin with Marek's Force push; the point being made here is that none of this exists outside the scope of Windu's capabilities, so it's hardly a feat worth comparing to what Tenebrous achieved, or his superiority over Plagueis in general. Mace was not strained by what he unleashed nor was it achieved with anything more than a single attack, and though in regards to the Raxus feat Marek swept his targets further, this was only because he sustained the push for longer. The long of short of it is that there exists significant parity between the two accomplishments.
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Regarding Plagueis' weather feat, of course it's a narrative dramatisation, but that doesn't make it incompatible with the realities of the universe. Instead it's actually possible for manifestations of the dark side to have a profound effect on the weather, the inadvertent lightning storms on Dromund Kaas being an example, nor am I arguing that Plagueis actively disturbed the weather on Naboo, merely that his presence on Naboo caused a disturbance.
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First of all I want to address the Databank quote, in regards to which you're ignoring the contexts. Yes it states that Marek was "ultimately" no match to Darth Sidious, but you're overlooking the fact that this is made within the contexts of his duel with Darth Vader:
As Juno rescued the Senators, Starkiller confronted the Sith Lords who had been manipulating him for years. Lightsabers clashed inside the Emperor's observation dome, but Starkiller was ultimately no match for the power of Darth Sidious.Or rather, though Starkiller was able to clash with and defeat Darth Vader [conjunction] he was no match for his more powerful master, full stop. That is the correct reading, whereas your reading - that Marek was initially a match for Sidious but ultimately proved not to be - would prerequisite the first clause, to which the latter is being compared, refer to a duel between Marek and the Emperor that never took place.
With that in mind I'll address the remainder of your claims.
First of all no, I was not ignoring the scan. I was making the point that it was sheer proximity rather than power that was causing Sidious to recoil as is depicted in that comic. Marek hands are inches away from Palpatine's own, and moments later he grabs him, creating an instant feedback loop.
The idea that this suggests parity is based on the notion that Marek was successfully deflecting his attack, but as I already demonstrated, he was not. Enough was getting through to cause him more pain than he'd ever experienced, which includes more pain that getting impaled by a ****ing lightsaber.
You argue that Palpatine's lighting was not doing lethal damage and being dampened by his defences, and yet on top of being in excruciating pain exceeding that of having your flesh incinerated by a plasma weapon, and being on the brink of unconsciousness from start to finish, Sidious' lightning is described as "searing every nerve back to its individual cells", that's the equivalent of third-degree burn that not only extends past the deepest layers of the skin, but destroy blood vessels, cause grave fluid losses and often proves fatal if covering more than half the body, Marek's entire body is being assaulted. In other words Palpatine was literally melting Marek's skin, and causing injuries that would have proven ultimately lethal to any normal human being and at least left him in a critical condition.
On the other hand Palpatine is getting hard on. There is no comparison. And the fact that Marek took a grand total of two steps towards Sidious, does not make the slightest difference.
Moving on, let's talk about the Rogue Shadow, yes it was probably engulfed by the blast, but there is no evidence to suggest it would not have been obliterated or at least seriously damaged if it had stuck around. The fact of the matter is that your argument is based completely in supposition, nowhere in the source material does it state that Marek was holding back, instead he is depicted as not even conscious of what he is doing, utterly surrendering himself to the Force before describing the events of his death in third-person:
Energy surged through him. He felt as though a star had blazed to life in his chest. Driven by concern for his friends rather than himself, he embraced the Force completely, utterly, and was rewarded with strength that made his efforts with the dark side look like those of a child. His nerves were on fire. Streamers of light radiated from his skin. His bones glowed like radiant lava.Within these contexts, it seriously stretches the imagination to assume that Marek was in real control of his actions, and that this was not instead an unchecked explosion of power that ultimately destroyed him, and nowhere does the source material support your intepretation.He saw rather than felt the massive shock wave that consumed a large portion of what remained of the observation dome. A glowing bubble of fire tore the stormtroopers to shreds and engulfed Vader and the Emperor. Shrapnel filled the air like dust caught in the beam of the Death Star's powerful laser.
In fact, the Starkiller's Databank entry pretty much puts the nail in the coffin on this debate:
Bombarded by Force lightning, Starkiller did not fight back but instead unleashed all the power of the Force within him, causing a tremendous blast that shattered the Emperor's tower and caused enough of a distraction to allow Eclipse and the Rebel Senators to escape.Or rather, Starkiller was not holding back anything at all.
Now to mop up with your remaining point, that the dark side ending is somehow irrelevant. On that basis? The DS ending, as always, offers an alternative set of events, what could have happened, it does not abandon all rhyme and reason to provide a fanciful imagining of what never would have happened. Characters act within character, and within the scope of their abilities, this has always been the way. And in that respect, offers us an accurate reflection of Marek being "no match" for the Emperor. Something reinforced further by Marek's multiple visions of the future, several of which reference the game's alternate events.
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Now finally Tenny's Bal'demnic. Energy diminishes with distance yes, as a result of the resistance it meets en route. In which case we have 1. air, which would have only fuelled it, 2. rock, which would have only created a build of pressure, intensifying it. Regardless what your doing is ignoring the critical point here, that the explosion reached them nigh instantaneously, so there simply wouldn't be sufficient time for the it to be diminished in the ways you are suggesting, especially considering the limited relief those suggested means would have given. What relevance assumptions regarding the positioning of the caverns to the explosions epicentre have I don't know, but I'm certainly not making any, and I don't need to.
As for the how they landed their ship, it was a shuttle not a cruiser darling. Whereas a perforation is a perforation, i.e. small hole. 👆
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So in summary:[list=1][*]Marek's Windu-tier showing does not establish parity let alone superiority to Tenebrous' accomplishments.
[*]Where Tenebrous was more powerful than Plagueis before his eventual prime, Marek was "no match" for the comparable powers of Darth Sidious.
[*]Tenny's Bal'demnic feat remains pretty ****ing impressive yeah, and more than a match for the majority of Marek's accomplishments.[/list=1]I'm prepared to agree to disagree on the weather feat, but even the possibility that it could have occurred surpasses Marek's holistic standing tbh.
