Luke Skywalker vs. Exar Kun, Ludo Kreesh and Naga Sadow

Started by chingchangwalla6 pages

Christ. The thought of someone actually losing a debate to you gives me Ebola. ^

Originally posted by MythLord
Luke's peak is confirmed to be during the Vong War, which is more than a decade after JA, but he later himself notes he feels more powerful than ever, or something along those lines.

Basically, FotJ Luke > LotF Luke > Vong War Luke >>> JA Luke. Not to mention Kun had an environmental amplification, and aditional aid from Kyp Durron who initially caught Skywalker off-guard, before Kun attacked him with sorcery he was, at the time, unfamiliar with.

Saying Exar Kun can beat GM Luke because he beat JA Luke through circumstances is straight up leukemia.

It should also be noted that even as of LotF, Jaina comments that she doesn't think Luke has shown her more than a fraction of his true power; and she was with him when he stormed Shimrra's palace.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It should also be noted that even as of LotF, Jaina comments that she doesn't think Luke has shown her more than a fraction of his true power; and she was with him when he stormed Shimrra's palace.

Was this the same Jaina who thought Caedus stopped blaster fighter from a cruiser? Because if we're going to take her word for it, we might as well believe Khem Val when he said Tulak Hord took down 1,000 jedi 👆

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Was this the same Jaina who thought Caedus stopped blaster fighter from a cruiser?

I'm honestly confused; how was this a mistake again?

In either case, that a major PoV character made one mistake doesn't mean you can dismiss everything she notes, not when she has fought alongside Luke more frequently than maybe anyone else.


Because if we're going to take her word for it, we might as well believe Khem Val when he said Tulak Hord took down 1,000 jedi 👆

I wouldn't doubt that Hord did, just like how Lsu killed more sith than the thought bomb. That doesn't mean he could just kill them all at the same time while they're surrounding him or something.

Regardless, Jedi's inner thoughts are probably more accurate than the pandering of Val.

I'm honestly confused; how was this a mistake again?

Because on no occasion do you offer the same courtesy to non PT characters regarding quotes such as this. In fact I'm pretty sure you've argued against things Kreia or Khem Val has said in the past. So the mistake is the double standard of you taking things certain characters say at face value while declaring others to be hearsay.

In either case, that a major PoV character made one mistake doesn't mean you can dismiss everything she notes, not when she has fought alongside Luke more frequently than maybe anyone else.

Wonderful, except I said no such thing. If Jaina says "the sky is currently blue", we don't dismiss it because she also said "I am the walrus". And that's nice that she fought with Luke. I'm sure if Khem Val fought with Hord even more, being his second in command basically. And even I'm not giving his quote any real recognition.

I wouldn't doubt that Hord did, just like how Lsu killed more sith than the thought bomb. That doesn't mean he could just kill them all at the same time while they're surrounding him or something.

Don't be silly, you of course doubt it. And Khem Val said Hord did it in one battle, so naturally stuff like that even I would have to question. Hence, hyperbole.

Regardless, Jedi's inner thoughts are probably more accurate than the pandering of Val.

Or jedi inner thoughts are less accurate than someone who used to eat the essence of force users, if we're going to rationalize here.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Because on no occasion do you offer the same courtesy to non PT characters regarding quotes such as this. In fact I'm pretty sure you've argued against things Kreia or Khem Val has said in the past. So the mistake is the double standard of you taking things certain characters say at face value while declaring others to be hearsay.

There are specific reasons to doubt the other instances you mention. I do not deny that Tulak Hord killed 1000 Jedi, for instance; I've just pointed out that plenty of characters on the level of Rastka Lsu and the Exile have done the same thing. It is a stretch to then extrapolate that Hord can literally kill 1000 Jedi surrounding him at the same time. That's not a double standard, it's looking at everything on a case by case basis.


Wonderful, except I said no such thing. If Jaina says "the sky is currently blue", we don't dismiss it because she also said "I am the walrus". And that's nice that she fought with Luke. I'm sure if Khem Val fought with Hord even more, being his second in command basically. And even I'm not giving his quote any real recognition.

See above. I do not deny Hord his killing a thousand Jedi, I just point out that this is an incredibly vague statement. How is Jaina's?


Don't be silly, you of course doubt it. And Khem Val said Hord did it in one battle, so naturally stuff like that even I would have to question. Hence, hyperbole.

What makes you think I doubt it? The Exile did a similar thing to Traya's academy; this doesn't mean I think she's Vader tier. It's more of a feat of stamina than anything.


Or jedi inner thoughts are less accurate than someone who used to eat the essence of force users, if we're going to rationalize here.

It's hardly an unreasonable rationalization that an ethical and experienced Jedi's inner thoughts are more reliable than the statements of a mass murdering villain thousands of years after the fact.

Beefy, if your only response is "It's nonsense!" then yes, that's a concession. And lol at you being so damn salty about it.

Beefy, if your only response is "It's nonsense!" then yes, that's a concession. And lol at you being so damn salty about it.

Yes, that was my response. That whole thing was my response. It's a hell of a lot better than "nah".

There are specific reasons to doubt the other instances you mention. I do not deny that Tulak Hord killed 1000 Jedi, for instance; I've just pointed out that plenty of characters on the level of Rastka Lsu and the Exile have done the same thing. It is a stretch to then extrapolate that Hord can literally kill 1000 Jedi surrounding him at the same time. That's not a double standard, it's looking at everything on a case by case basis.

I've seen you argue against all of these simply because it was hearsay. That's my point. Yes, it's tough to believe Hord killed 1,000 Jedi in one sitting but remember at one point, someone was pushing the belief that Palpatine knew every force user ever and created new ones in his spare time. It depends on how much someone likes the character (sadly).

See above. I do not deny Hord his killing a thousand Jedi, I just point out that this is an incredibly vague statement. How is Jaina's?

It's hearsay. Unless Jaina is an expert on force users, especially ones superior to her, she has no clue what she's talking about. She MAY be right but you can't claim she is while I have every authority to ask you to prove it.

What makes you think I doubt it? The Exile did a similar thing to Traya's academy; this doesn't mean I think she's Vader tier. It's more of a feat of stamina than anything.

This is nonsense. What exactly makes it a stamina feat? If character X is capable of killing off 20-30 force users at a time, then yes, they're superior to Vader. Also, remind me when the Exile did that? I know Traya did that to about 10-15 sith with her force drain (and that makes her superior to Vader in the force).

It's hardly an unreasonable rationalization that an ethical and experienced Jedi's inner thoughts are more reliable than the statements of a mass murdering villain thousands of years after the fact.

I like the way you phrase that to swing this particular part of the argument in your favor.

It's not unreasonable at all though but it can hardly qualify as evidence. What's more reasonable is someone who was second in command and ate the essence of force users by the dozens. There's little reason to doubt the authenticity of his claims because he was both in stasis and a "mass murdering villain" because neither point is relevant. But like I said, even I doubt the claim because it appears to be hyperbole.

The Exile faced a "legion" of Sith on Malachor V. Though she was unique in that she fed off each of her enemies' deaths.

Didn't Hord do the same, though?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Exile faced a "legion" of Sith on Malachor V. Though she was unique in that she fed off each of her enemies' deaths.

Didn't Hord do the same, though?

That's like saying "Revan faced an army on the Star Forge". Don't really know the circumstances especially if it was constantly a 1-1 battle.

What Hord did apparently involved rituals to scare the crap out of his enemies on the battlefield. But Khem said it was in one battle, not throughout his lifetime or anything like that.

Who said we knew the circumstances for Hord's off-panel fights, lol?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Who said we knew the circumstances for Hord's off-panel fights, lol?

That's my point, lol. Although Val implies that it's his own rituals but it's as much hearsay as Jaina thinking Luke is using only a fraction of his power or Khem saying Hord destroyed 1,000 jedi, Revan was the heart of the force, etc.

I'm an economics guy (as in advanced), and that based on hard numbers, our economy should have collapsed a while ago. But it hasn't happened. So my alleged expertise don't really matter.

Pretty sure Hord had an army for his vaunted feat.

But yeah, beating armies of enemies that are basically fodder to you is mostly a feat of stamina and speed, primarily, since your skill is vastly above any of theirs.

Pretty sure Hord had an army for his vaunted feat.

Then there would be no need to mention that Hord destroyed 1,000 jedi with rituals.


But yeah, beating armies of enemies that are basically fodder to you is mostly a feat of stamina and speed, primarily, since your skill is vastly above any of theirs.

Wait what? Stamina was mentioned regarding what happened on Malachor. Remind me how beating multiple opponents is a testament of stamina rather than force abilities? So Sidious defeating the B Team was stamina and not his lightsaber prowess? Kreia force draining 10-15 sith was stamina, not force abilities?

Khem said he did it solo.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Khem said he did it solo.

That's my point. And we don't just take that at face value when it helps our argument because there IS a reason to be skeptical about some feats in the mythos (gathering force related works from a million worlds ahem ahem).

I was responding to Sunrazer.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I was responding to Sunrazer.

Well then...

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Then there would be no need to mention that Hord destroyed 1,000 jedi with rituals.

I didn't say that.

Wait what? Stamina was mentioned regarding what happened on Malachor. Remind me how beating multiple opponents is a testament of stamina rather than force abilities? So Sidious defeating the B Team was stamina and not his lightsaber prowess? Kreia force draining 10-15 sith was stamina, not force abilities?

Remind me of the proof that Hord/Exile blitzed them or instakilled them. Otherwise, completely incomparable examples.

Remind me of the proof that Hord/Exile blitzed them or instakilled them. Otherwise, completely incomparable examples.

I think you missed the point. You can't just claim "stamina" when facing multiple opponents. My examples denote lightsaber/force superiority. If you want to add speed/stamina into that equation sure, but those two attributes come from lightsaber/force superiority.