Luke Skywalker vs. Exar Kun, Ludo Kreesh and Naga Sadow

Started by SunRazer6 pages
Originally posted by Nephthys
Khem said he did it solo.

And more reliable sources disagree.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I think you missed the point. You can't just claim "stamina" when facing multiple opponents. My examples denote lightsaber/force superiority. If you want to add speed/stamina into that equation sure, but those two attributes come from lightsaber/force superiority.

Obviously there's superiority. I argue it for the Exile on a regular basis. I'm just saying that there's a point where this superiority plateaus and it's mostly stamina doing the work from then on.

Well unlike you I own those sources and they do not.

And more reliable sources disagree.

Uh like what? And more reliable? Lol. Are they more reliable because you want them to disagree? Please enlighten us.


Obviously there's superiority. I argue it for the Exile on a regular basis. I'm just saying that there's a point where this superiority plateaus and it's mostly stamina doing the work from then on.

You can't really argue that because you can't quantify stamina in any theoretical debate.

I own the Encyclopedia, so I can correct myself or check something if you give me a quote. And the codex entries can be accessed online.

And I've finished Inquisitor, but that was long ago. Still, even checking through Ant's RT invalidates Khem's claim, since Khem himself was fighting alongside Hord to conquer the Jedi army. There's also a quote about Hord leading an army into battle, unless it refers to the other one.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Uh like what? And more reliable? Lol. Are they more reliable because you want them to disagree? Please enlighten us.

More reliable because it's third-person and objective. I mean TOR's codex entries and the Encyclopedia. Yeah, more reliable than Kiss-ass Val.

You can't really argue that because you can't quantify stamina in any theoretical debate.

You can't quantify the level of skill involved either, so we're at an impasse.

More reliable because it's third-person and objective. I mean TOR's codex entries and the Encyclopedia. Yeah, more reliable than Kiss-ass Val.

I'm still waiting on the quotes that are more reliable. Also lol@kiss Val. I suppose Jaina's a kiss ass as well?

You can't quantify the level of skill involved either, so we're at an impasse.

Of course we can. We know Palpatine was superior to the B team in the force and in saber abilities. There's nothing to quantify there. Stamina requires quantification on any level.

Chabosh is the battle where Khem and his army fought with him. Yn was a siege that Hord broke single-handedly.

The Encyclopedia only says Khem consumed dead Jedi at Yn. The codex says Hord ate the power of Jedi at Yn and Chabosh and that he fought at them. It does say he used an army of dark side warriors in battle but nothing about specific battles.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I'm still waiting on the quotes that are more reliable. Also lol@kiss Val. I suppose Jaina's a kiss ass as well?

Depends on who Jaina's talking about.

For the quotes:

One of Khem Val's proudest victories came during the Battle of Chabosh, where he fought by Tulak Hord's side to conqueror an army of Jedi 1,000 strong.

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful. Among Hord’s greatest triumphs were the battles of Yn and Chabosh. With an army of dark side warriors and his faithful Dashade assassin at his side, he annihilated the rebels who defied the expansion of the Sith Empire and went on to conquer the Dromund system–setting the stage for Dromund Kaas to eventually become capital of the Empire.

-- The Old Republic Codex: Tomb of Tulak Hord

Khem fought alongside him, and the army of dark side warriors, unless they were just watching, would've also been involved.

Of course we can. We know Palpatine was superior to the B team in the force and in saber abilities. There's nothing to quantify there. Stamina requires quantification on any level.

Yeah, cuz he blitzed. Prove that Hord destroyed the Jedi in a comparable amount of time.

If we're taking character statements at face value, then Sidious claims that Vader's skills are unmatched by any Sith before him, and Thame Cerulian claims that Dooku is a better swordsman than any Jedi in the Order, including Yoda. And Anakin claims that Obi-Wan is as powerful as Mace, etc.

We're not discussing personal opinions, lol. Khem is telling us about an event he witnessed that actually happened. Unless you think he's lying or he hallucinated it you don't have cause to think he's wrong about it. It isn't an opinion.

Your second quote says Hord had an army and Khem, it doesn't mention how he used them in specific battles.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We're not discussing personal opinions, lol. Khem is telling us about an event he witnessed that actually happened. Unless you think he's lying or he hallucinated it you don't have cause to think he's wrong about it.

Your second quote says Hord had an army and Khem, it doesn't mention how he used them in specific battles.

What makes you think Khem isn't trying to glorify Hord by exaggerating details? You know, this is the only person in his life who gave him purpose, who defeated him at full strength in a fair battle, and to whom he's still basically trying to re-enter the servitude of. Alternatively, what makes you think that his memory wasn't affected, as Ajunta Pall's was in KotOR?

The quote also claims that Khem fought alongside Hord, so it's obviously not Hord doing it solo, as Khem claimed. There's already a contradiction. At the end of the day, no matter how you choose to justify the discrepancy (or choose not to justify it at all), Khem's claims are flat-out contradicted by objective sources. He's not a reliable source.

My quote also states that he had them by his side, so unless you're suggesting that the army and Khem just watched on as Hord solo'd the Jedi, then yeah, they were used. Not to mention that we know Khem fought by Tulak Hord's side, so the army of dark side warriors that were also by his side would've been logically involved in an identical manner.

What makes you think Khem isn't trying to glorify Hord by exaggerating details? You know, this is the only person in his life who gave him purpose, who defeated him at full strength in a fair battle, and to whom he's still basically trying to re-enter the servitude of. Alternatively, what makes you think that his memory wasn't affected, as Ajunta Pall's was in KotOR?

What makes you think he is? The burden of proof would be on you. I like how we go from a hyperbolic quote to one that could possibly be used, and Khem Val becomes "kiss ass Khem". At least pretend you're being objective here?

The quote also claims that Khem fought alongside Hord, so it's obviously not Hord doing it solo, as Khem claimed. There's already a contradiction. At the end of the day, no matter how you choose to justify the discrepancy (or choose not to justify it at all), Khem's claims are flat-out contradicted by objective sources. He's not a reliable source.

You haven't provided any of these objective sources and if he's not reliable, I guess neither is Jaina?

My quote also states that he had them by his side, so unless you're suggesting that the army and Khem just watched on as Hord solo'd the Jedi, then yeah, they were used. Not to mention that we know Khem fought by Tulak Hord's side, so the army of dark side warriors that were also by his side would've been logically involved in an identical manner.

An army can have jedi and soldiers. His army could be fighting the soldiers while he carries out his ritual against the Jedi. There's your plausible scenario (not that I'm using it).

Originally posted by SunRazer
What makes you think Khem isn't trying to glorify Hord by exaggerating details? You know, this is the only person in his life who gave him purpose, who defeated him at full strength in a fair battle, and to whom he's still basically trying to re-enter the servitude of. Alternatively, what makes you think that his memory wasn't affected, as Ajunta Pall's was in KotOR?

The quote also claims that Khem fought alongside Hord, so it's obviously not Hord doing it solo, as Khem claimed. There's already a contradiction. At the end of the day, no matter how you choose to justify the discrepancy (or choose not to justify it at all), Khem's claims are flat-out contradicted by objective sources. He's not a reliable source.

My quote also states that he had them by his side, so unless you're suggesting that the army and Khem just watched on as Hord solo'd the Jedi, then yeah, they were used. Not to mention that we know Khem fought by Tulak Hord's side, so the army of dark side warriors that were also by his side would've been logically involved in an identical manner.

The very fact that Khem respects Hords strength is what suggests he wouldn't feel the need to exaggerate it. That's pathetic and would make Hord unworthy of Khem's high opinion. And I don't need to give you a reason for why he isn't doing something, that would be proving a negative. You need to prove that Khem is exaggerating. Which is impossible. Khem never died like Pall did, nor did he spend millennia in despair. He was just in stasis. There's no reason to doubt his memories other than that you want to.

No it doesn't. You're getting your battles mixed up. Khem fought with him at Chabosh, as the quote says. Yn is the siege where Hord solo'd the attackers. There is no contradiction.

No, it doesn't. Your quote is speaking about the whole conflict, not any specific battle. Hord had an army and Khem at his side for the war as a whole, which doesn't mean he couldn't have fought solo. Khem flat out says Hord did it solo. His account is the most reliable and specific.

I think the only thing unreliable here, is your objectivity in reviewing these sources. You're clearly twisting them for your agenda. Just admit you were wrong and we can discuss Hord's strength in earnest.

This whole argument proves bias and renders all of these arguments moot. The PT/OT/NJO crowd will argue to death about quotes regarding the ancients while taking those for the PT/OT/NJO at face value. The ancient sith crowd turns around and does the same thing. Then the winner declares himself the winner by either posting the longest or saying "concession accepted" and the cycle begins anew.

Originally posted by Nephthys
We're not discussing personal opinions, lol. Khem is telling us about an event he witnessed that actually happened. Unless you think he's lying or he hallucinated it you don't have cause to think he's wrong about it. It isn't an opinion.

Your second quote says Hord had an army and Khem, it doesn't mention how he used them in specific battles.

SunRazer uses double standards all the time.

Originally posted by aalyasecura95
compliment accepted

concession accepted

😂

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say that.

Remind me of the proof that Hord/Exile blitzed them or instakilled them. Otherwise, completely incomparable examples.

Hahah. You first respond falsely without knowing better than casually dismiss it showing ignorance and later bias at the same time. Double standards are your thing. It only counts when your guy does it.

Damn, owned.

You gonna take that Sunloser?

The notion that someone wouldn't exaggerate another person's qualities because they respect that quality is outright retarded. KV can absolutely respect TH's strength and still embellish. People do that in the real world all the goddamn time lol.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Damn, owned.

You gonna take that Sunloser?

The mental gymnastics this guy uses all the time to reach his biased conclusions support his own agenda. What I'm not 100 percent sure of is if he is delusional or aware he's biased.