I´ll come to that later, as well as to the Push.
No, but Dooku knows Ataru very, very, very well. To Soresu vs Djem So: Then I remembered false, lol.
It comes not from his greater Raw Power.
Still good strength feats from Dooku.
Nah, I don´t see it. Anakin isn´t physically stomping Galen, tho. Galen is likely also stronger than Dooku, but his feats against Vader don´t prove this, imo.
As we don´t have more parts on Sabers:
I don´t think that Anakin is more skilled that Dooku. In raw Skill. In overall combative Saber fight, tho? Here is Anakin superior. He had the upper hand against the Count in the whole fight. And Dooku is superior to TFU Vader by a fair marigin. Have you an Scan of the Galen vs Vader fight? I am interested in this, to see who had the upper hand in Sabers. And/or Arguments.
Alright.
Fair point. Dooku does possess knowledge of Ataru. He only employed said knowledge to directly counter it at the end of the ruse and that's when Obi Wan switched to Soresu.
It's fine but it's not something that you can say puts him over Vader or even one of his contemporaries if they had possessed the same advantages.
You don't see what?
You would need to prove that Dooku is superior to TFU Vader.
I'll post the passage for Vader and Galen's fight in a separate post.
Eh, annoyed was a too weak word. He was pissed off. But by far not as angry, as he was in the Zone.
Also, he being able to control his Scream is a great showing of mastery.
He had an vastly Power Growth in that time. I am searching for quotes. I ´ll probably just ask in the Forum, lol.
I said peak Anakin. You agreed via PM, to Non-Zone Peak Anakin. Also, this Gunray to Padme feat interests me.
You would need to prove how angry he was in those instances which is impossible since we don't get an in depth look at his thoughts and feelings for both passages. And how did he control his scream? It nearly brought down the dome on their heads.
No need. I've since seen various sources that confirm his growth.
Fair enough.
Yeah, but before his vast power growths.
Granted but how are you going to accurately scale something like that?
Impressive
Tho, I don´t see this to be more Impressive, than Anakin being >Dooku, tbh.
I´ll explain now, why I have Anakin above him in Force: His physicals. Like I said, his Force Argumentation is easily superior to Dooku´s. I´ve proved this above. Has Dooku successful attacked Anakin with the Force in RotS? If not, then Anakin was also better in combative using of the force wink . I´ll search If I find more, but I think that is enough, tbh.
Dooku, who ragdolled Vos, who raggdolled K´Krukh, which moved
Obi Wan was so inferior to Dooku that he was dominated by the Count telekinetically. He was still able to match him in regards to speed. Caedus has been telekinetically pinned by Luke yet he was able to contend with him in a duel. Augmentation isn't something that always applies to combative applications of the Force.
Imo Dooku=Galen in the Force, so, no.
TFU Vader hasn`t anything at Anakin, in Duelling, lol.
Yeah, It hasn´t helped the guy, who know Anakin’s fighting Style inside out, but the guy, who´ve seen Anakin’s holograms?!
@Syn Do you want votes, btw? Just for the debate, not what the Guys think, it would go.
You'd have to prove that Dooku is an equal.
He has all of Anakin's skill and experience on top of his own decades of experience hunting down Jedi and leading armies against rebels in the Galactic Civil War... He is more technically skilled then Anakin by far.
It did help Obi Wan. That's why they were so evenly matched despite Anakin possessing greater power by far.
I don't really know if I want votes tbh. We're not going to get many serious ones. Maybe from people we agree on.
Here's the fight as you requested.
"
IT WAS EMPTY. BEFORE ANYONE could respond to the sound, he telekinetically sealed the doors leading back into the Death Star. Then he turned and wrenched the inner doors open.
"...traitors to the Empire," came Palpatine's voice from the chamber beyond, gloatingly, coldly, full of unimaginable malice. "You will be interrogated. Tortured. You will give me the names of your friends and allies. And then, when you are no longer of any use to me, you will be executed."
Bail Organa's voice rose up in defiance. "Our deaths will only rally others..."
"Your executions will be very public and very painful, Senator Organa. They will serve to crush any further dissent."
The apprentice strode purposefully into the room, circling a large energy field generator in the center of the dome. Mon Mothma, Garm Bel Iblis, Bail Organa, and Master Rahm Kota stood together on the far side, surrounded by Imperial Guards. The Emperor was pacing in front of them, hooded and hunched but radiating incredible power. The apprentice had eyes only for the dark figure looming a meter or two away, arms crossed as he watched the scene.
Kota cocked his ruined face as the apprentice approached. The hum of the lightsaber was suddenly very loud.
"There may yet be a Rebellion," Kota said, grinning as though he'd never believed otherwise.
Darth Vader and the Emperor turned at the same moment.
A surge of hatred filled every vein of the apprentice's body. The time for revenge had come at last.
The Emperor's hateful visage twisted into a mask of derision.
"Lord Vader, deal with the boy. Properly, this time."
The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia.
The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit-the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi. He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles.
He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.
Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.
The apprentice understood that, until this moment, they had never truly fought as equals. His Master had either held back, or he himself had capitulated. Now, for the first time, they would see each other's true potential. Where Darth Vader was strong and relentless, he was fast and sly. And there were ways to fight that didn't involve lightsabers. Loose objects, accelerated to killing speeds by the Force, became projectiles that converged from all directions. Invisible fists clutched for throats or punched with the power of pile drivers. Floors tipped underfoot; severed beams stabbed like javelins; overloaded circuits exploded.
"You are weak," the apprentice said as his former Master launched a second series of bone-crushing blows, each one of which he blocked with elegant precision.
Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent's defenses.
The apprentice vowed not to give him one. He whirled and danced around his Master's defenses, testing them to their limits.
"You thought I was dead," he said, letting that small triumph spur his determination to new heights. Their lightsabers danced, blurring and sweeping and shedding sparks in a way that would have been beautiful had their intent not been so deadly. The apprentice felt the wild, joyous energies of the dark side flowing through him and he resisted its call, seeking a better way to finish the job.
They fought back and forth across the observation dome.
"I understand you now," he said, still trying to goad his former Master into breaking his concentration. "You killed my father and kidnapped me from Kashyyyk, not just to be your apprentice, but to be a son to you. Was that how your father treated you?"
The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled. "I have no father."
The apprentice fell back under the rain of blows. The sizzling of fabric and a faint stink of burning skin told him that at least two of Darth Vader's misses had been horribly near, but he felt no pain. He, on the other hand, had definitely struck a nerve.
Glancing over Darth Vader's shoulder, he saw the Emperor watching the duel, his face screwed up in malevolent delight. And the apprentice understood. A better way to kill. . .
Not out of hatred. Whatever lay beneath that black mask, it wasn't beauty or happiness. Only ugliness and pain would hide itself away for so long. Hatred would not be enough to turn the tables on Darth Vader.
Reaching out with his left hand, he blasted his Master with Sith lightning. That broke the momentum of the furious onslaught, enabling him to stand and catch his breath.
"I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," he gasped. "That's something I will teach you now."
"You can teach me nothing," Darth Vader's leaden voice intoned. One black glove clenched, and for a moment the apprentice's throat closed tight.
He beat back the telekinetic attack with one of his own, shoving his Master in the chest with the force of a small explosion, throwing Darth Vader backward across the room.
For all his size and occasional clumsiness, the Dark Lord was sure on his feet. He landed upright and launched himself back into the fray.
"I don't hate you," the apprentice went on, blocking him blow for blow. "I pity you." With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot. "You destroyed who I was and made me as I am now, but this wasn't your idea. It was the Emperor's, and it's what he's already done to you." A strip of Darth Vader's cape fluttered away, smoking. The two came closer together until they were face-to-mask. The apprentice stared directly into the black eye guards of his former Master. "You are his creature just as I was yours-but you've never had the strength to rebel. That's why I pity you. I will no longer serve a monster, and if I have my way I'll make sure you don't, either."
Vader tried to pull away, but the apprentice followed him, keeping him on the back foot.
"I will kill you," he said, "to set you free."
The lightsabers flashed again-and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.
There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.
For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.
Then the Dark Lord laughed.
It was an awful sound, empty of humor and full of mockery. In it, the apprentice heard a decade and a half of torture and abuse.
Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.
Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.
The apprentice gripped his lightsaber in both hands and held himself back. Anger was familiar and powerful; it also clouded his eyes when he most needed to see clearly.
Vader prepared for combat again. His power over the apprentice, however, was gone. His lightsaber went skittering and sparking across the floor, twisted out of his grip by telekinesis. The Force wrenched him into the air, as he had once lifted the apprentice's father, and a barrage of missiles struck at him with increasing strength. He raised his gloved hands to defend himself, but the battery continued until, with a crash, the apprentice ripped the energy field generator in the center of the room right out of the floor and hurled it at his former Master.
The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.
"He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.
The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. "When he rolled over, the apprentice froze.
Darth Vader's helmet had been ripped away by the blast. Beneath was the face of the man who had stolen and enslaved him, a pathetic, hairless thing covered in wrinkles and old scar tissue. Only the eyes showed the slightest signs of life: blue and full of pain, they stared up at him with undisguised weariness."- The Force Unleashed.
Dooku didn't stomp Kenobi in a contest of who was physically stronger but of martial skill. And yes, his age would be a physical factor. Anakin is of course going to amp himself more in regards to strength since his form is based around the power of his kinetic strikes. Nowhere is it suggested that Anakin matched Dooku's speed in AotC. He surprised the Count with his skill and power but he was taken out casually despite being amped to a state similar to the one he was in when he slaughtered the Tuskans. This is confirmed in multiple sources.
Credit to ShootingNova
He was a chhallenge for Dooku, before he grows vastly in power. Good point 👆
Here matches Dooku Anakin´s strenght, btw:
Credit to ShootingNova
The link you provided for me took me to a blank page. Must have expired.
Credit to Wollf
Fair point. Dooku does possess knowledge of Ataru. He only employed said knowledge to directly counter it at the end of the ruse and that's when Obi Wan switched to Soresu.
It's fine but it's not something that you can say puts him over Vader or even one of his contemporaries if they had possessed the same advantages. You don't see what? You would need to prove that Dooku is superior to TFU Vader.
You would need to prove how angry he was in those instances which is impossible since we don't get an in depth look at his thoughts and feelings for both passages. And how did he control his scream? It nearly brought down the dome on their heads. No need. I've since seen various sources that confirm his growth.
You'd have to prove that Dooku is an equal.
Sidious then turned his attention to Anakin Skywalker, knowing that young Skywalker was much stronger in the Force than Tyranus.
Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Re-live the incredible battle between two of the most powerful Jedi of all - as they fight to the finish on a Trade Federation Cruiser! Only the strongest Jedi remains—will it be the light side or the dark side of the Force?
Source: Battle Arena: Federation Cruiser
And, far more impressive, quotes which put him >= Yoda powerwise(Agai, credit to Nova).
"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"
Source: Revenge of the Sith
Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.
Source: Labyrinth of Evil
"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"
"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."
...
Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.
I’m more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.[/I]
Source: Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines
He has all of Anakin's skill and experience on top of his own decades of experience hunting down Jedi and leading armies against rebels in the Galactic Civil War... He is more technically skilled then Anakin by far.
Huh?
He was a chhallenge for Dooku, before he grows vastly in power. Good point
The image you provided was of Dooku landing a kick on Obi Wan. Not outmatching him in a contest of strength. I don't know what that proves.
That's the exact opposite of what I'm saying. And I provided the quotes proving my position.
Here matches Dooku Anakin´s strenght, btw
Yes, we've already established that Anakin is physically stronger then Dooku...
Nowhere is Anakin being smashed through a steel floor in the image of Durge and him fighting.
I meant in his fight against Yoda
Fair enough.
Okay. What puts TFU Vader > Dooku, or even just Kenobi as duelist?
Former has beaten the AotC Duo, is canonically the best Swordfighter of trhe Order of all time, bar Yoda and Windu, as of TPM, dominated Kenobi, bested Grievous and Ventress, and hold his own against Yoda.
Anakin dominated him, and statlemated Kenobi while massievely hindered.
First we need to established what you're asking. Are we comparing them as duelists or lightsaber combatants? As a duelist we'd measure technical ability which would be Anakin + Vader's knowledge/experience for Vader. As a lightsaber combatant we'd measure all abilities that contribute and have to do with someone's performance in lightsaber combat. Also it should be noted many of the feats you posted had heavy circumstances involved.
Eh, I don´t have Dooku = Galen in the Force anymore, but certainly close; as he ragdolled Kenobi and vos, and hurled Cruisers with ease.
Dooku hurled vehicles of unknown size on a Darkside nexus. In regards to Kenobi, the first time he pushed Kenobi was in a move too sudden for Obi Wan to raise an active defense. The second he had been caught by Dooku's kick and was limp in the air. Sources indicate that given more time Obi Wan could have erected a defense that would have blocked Dooku's attack. As for Quinlan he was an acolyte of Dooku at the time. If he'd resisted he would have simply been punished by the Count further.
Anakin has greater raw power then either Yoda or Dooku due to his enormous potential, but only when he can access it. He is not capable of employing that power to its fullest capabilities unless he's enraged or focused. Granted this means he has far greater endurance then most opponents but it does not apply to his ability to employ the Force combatively or augment himself.
Proof? We still have the "a shadow of his former self" quote, and Anakin´s showings are far better.
He completely changed his fighting style post-RotS btw.
I think you're mixing up combative capability with a lightsaber and technical skill. Vader cannot lose technical skill anymore then you or me could lose our knowledge to speak our native language. He can only gain in this regard.
The "shadow of his former self" quote is only in regards to potential since we have several quotes confirming that Vader is more powerful then he was as Anakin.
I am aware.