Nihilus/Traya's Drain Is Not An Instakill

Complete no-limits fallacy to believe that this is the case to begin with, but should anyone require the proof, I just posted the following in another thread, explaining how Nihilus/Traya's Drain works and how it isn't an instakill:

It's not Severing in the sense of your average Sever Force, but it's Severing you from life itself as well. This is mentioned more than once in KotOR II:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"I was the only living thing remaining on the planet of Katarr... and my life, my agony, was a flicker in the darkness that was the planet. All that I had been connected to had been severed."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

There's a reason why Meetra wasn't Draining people when they were alive, but only doing so once they died - because this technique feeds on death, not life. It requires you to cause death by Severing connections between life and the Force, and then feeding on the death(s) that occurs as a consequence. This is also why this ability is distinct from other versions of Drain displayed in the mythos.

It stands to reason that Nihilus can't do this Severing against beings who are more powerful than him. The no-limits fallacy argument is further disproven by the game, since Traya survived Nihilus' Drain despite him Draining to kill.

"There is more. Darth Traya yet lives. You did not kill her, as you assumed."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

And the case with Traya also links back to what I said above, since the KotORCG claims that her powers were drained by her apprentices, yet she claims in KotOR II that she was "stripped of her powers". It was an incomplete process of the quotes I provided above.

We can add to this the fact that the Assassins use an identical technique to Nihilus, yet they never instakilled anyone. This is because they're not strong enough to do so, again proving that it isn't the technique that kills but the power of the user:

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

To all the people who think that Nihilus (or even Traya) can instakill anybody with their Drain bar Surik, you're dead wrong, as per KotOR II. They can do it, if they're strong enough to completely carry out the process I explained above. If they can't do that, their Drain will only have a partial effect, similar to the Assassins. They'll still get stronger, and their opponents presumably weaker, but nothing more - certainly not an instakill.

Meetra, Nihilus and the Sith assassins fed on people when they were alive though? 😕

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Meetra, Nihilus and the Sith assassins fed on people when they were alive though? 😕

I already explained that (somewhat) in the OP. It's either an incomplete process (ie. Nihilus v Kreia) or a weaker usage of it (Assassins v all). Nihilus' Drain on his crew is just the "siphoning of wills" that the other Wounds in the Force in the game, the Exile and Malachor V, also exhibited. Of course, in Nihilus' case, there's also a corruptive influence, as with Malachor V.

Meetra and Nihilus feed off death, that's repeatedly stated in the game, including the first quote in the OP. The only other Wound in the Force in the game, Malachor V, is also described by Kreia as feeding on death:

"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

I shouldn't have to do this, really, but just proof that Surik, Nihilus and Malachor V, the only explicitly stated Wounds in the Force in the game, feed on/off death:

Meetra Surik:

""He's right. It's... all the deaths you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Nihilus:

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Malachor V:

"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

""He's right. It's... all the deaths you've caused to get here. You feed on it, and you grow stronger. You're like Malachor... it's in you, it's what you are now."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Originally posted by SunRazer
It stands to reason that Nihilus can't do this Severing against beings who are more powerful than him. The no-limits fallacy argument is further disproven by the game, since Traya survived Nihilus' Drain despite him Draining to kill.

Which also ties in with either Kavar or Zez Kai Ell's quote about the threat not being strong enough to confront them openly.

As for Sion's quote, it never made sense, which is why it was probably cut out of the game.

Even if Sion and Nihilus assumed Kreia was dead and left, didn't they notice that her corpse was no longer in the Trayus core. Did no one else in the academy notice when she dusted herself off and went to to hangar to get a ship?

Being fair, Nihilus' draining of the masters on Katarr is essentially a cheapshot since none of them were actively trying to defend themselves.

I doubt Kreia is more powerful than the combined power of dozens of the most powerful masters of the Jedi Order, at the time, and she managed to resist to the point that she didn't die, she only got severed and later regained her power.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Nihilus drained Katar though. An entire planet of Force sensitives, and the best of what was left of the Jedi including master Vandar.

Which also ties in with either Kavar or Zez Kai Ell's quote about the threat not being strong enough to confront them openly.

Which is why they died. They weren't powerful enough to stand up to Traya/Nihilus' Drain. That doesn't mean that every single character in the mythos would die instantly to it.

As for Sion's quote, it never made sense, which is why it was probably cut out of the game.

It's in the game files. They just didn't include it because the game couldn't be finished in time. Not to mention that even if you are using things from the game, the first thing Sion mentions when he faces Kreia again is how hard she is to kill... implying again that they had failed despite their intent.

Even if Sion and Nihilus assumed Kreia was dead and left, didn't they notice that her corpse was no longer in the Trayus core. Did no one else in the academy notice when she dusted herself off and went to to hangar to get a ship?

They obviously did assume she was dead. As for why nobody else could Sense her, Atris explains that since Kreia had the Force stripped from her, it actually made it harder for others to sense her. Of course, that doesn't mean it's impossible to sense her, since she's still a practical non-Force sensitive. It's probable that she nearly died and only awoke after they had left.

But I'm not here to indulge theories on backstory content. This stuff doesn't disprove the crux of my post, which is that these powers aren't instakills.

Originally posted by MythLord
Being fair, Nihilus' draining of the masters on Katarr is essentially a cheapshot since none of them were actively trying to defend themselves.

I doubt Kreia is more powerful than the combined power of dozens of the most powerful masters of the Jedi Order, at the time, and she managed to resist to the point that she didn't die, she only got severed and later regained her power.

Kreia couldn't defend herself either. Which is exactly why she talks about how the technique has no defense in the scene where she's getting ousted.

I'm not saying that Traya's necessarily more powerful than all the Miraluka and Jedi combined (though it's not that ludicrous, since the Force signatures of singular beings have outweighed huge populations before), but that she survived Nihilus' Drain is impressive regardless.

On a side note, this might lend some credence to the notion that "there is no defense" against Drain, but still, Nihilus and Traya etc. can't one-shot whomever they like.

Originally posted by SunRazer
[B]Which is why they died. They weren't powerful enough to stand up to Traya/Nihilus' Drain. That doesn't mean that every single character in the mythos would die instantly to it.

Seriously though, Nihilus could drain entire planets. Not just Jedi or Force sensitives, but every living thing. Tobin and Visas mentioned that Nihilus' awareness had expanded to the point where he "sees planets, stars... not people". Powerful Force sensitives like the Exile or Visas were "dust motes on a storm.

No one else is that powerful.

That's Nihilus' whole shtick. He's not on the normal scale of Force users. He's a force of nature, a black hole.

Originally posted by SunRazer It's in the game files. They just didn't include it because the game couldn't be finished in time. Not to mention that even if you are using things from the game, the first thing Sion mentions when he faces Kreia again is how hard she is to kill... implying again that they had failed despite their intent.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well, Exar Kun wouldn't!

Seriously though, Nihilus could drain entire planets. Not just Jedi or Force sensitives, but every living thing. Tobin and Visas mentioned that Nihilus' awareness had expanded to the point where he "sees planets, stars... not people". Powerful Force sensitives like the Exile or Visas were "dust motes on a storm.

No one else is that powerful.

That's Nihilus' whole shtick. He's not on the normal scale of Force users. He's a force of nature, a black hole.

That's obvious, but it doesn't preclude his Drain from not being an instakill, lol.

"I was cast down, stripped of my power, exiled. I suffered indignities..."

No, that's not the quote I meant, lol. It was this:

"After all that has happened, still you live. You are difficult to kill."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

They were obviously surprised to learn that she survived. Not sure how the other quote didn't make sense, anyway.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well, Exar Kun wouldn't!

Seriously though, Nihilus could drain entire planets. Not just Jedi or Force sensitives, but every living thing. Tobin and Visas mentioned that Nihilus' awareness had expanded to the point where he "sees planets, stars... not people". Powerful Force sensitives like the Exile or Visas were "dust motes on a storm.

No one else is that powerful.

That's Nihilus' whole shtick. He's not on the normal scale of Force users. He's a force of nature, a black hole."

👆

Traya survived because like Meetra she could survive that experience. She has the ability to feign death so it's possible she used that to trick Sion and N. into thinking she'd died.

Nihilus' drain basically is an insta-kill. There's no defense against it, it's destructive capabilities are almost unequaled and even if you manage to survive you're stripped of the Force and defenseless. The idea that people more powerful than him could block it is total bunk imo. The only beings I'd buy that from is the One's purely because they're literal gods.

Originally posted by Nephthys
👆

Traya survived because like Meetra she could survive that experience.

Umm... what? Traya goes out of her way to talk about how Surik is unique. Surik was Severed further than anyone, including Traya, and even she admitted that. She even talks about how she "sought to understand" how Surik could give up the Force and still live, which proves that the circumstances weren't even remotely the same in her case.

You're reaching desperately.

She has the ability to feign death so it's possible she used that to trick Sion and N. into thinking she'd died.

She couldn't even TK her saber on a colossal geyser of DS energies. What makes you think that she can successfully bypass the Force Senses of Sion and Nihilus (who were right in front of her) as a non-Force sensitive, lol?

She was just brought to the brink of death itself and miraculously survived. The game files have her vomiting blood after she gets hit by Sion.

Nihilus' drain basically is an insta-kill. There's no defense against it, it's destructive capabilities are almost unequaled and even if you manage to survive you're stripped of the Force and defenseless.

Nowhere is it stated that it's an instakill. The only reason you'd think that is because it's killed the life on Katarr, who were simply too weak to resist his power. Traya's survival is proof that it doesn't kill all.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Umm... what? Traya goes out of her way to talk about how Surik is unique. Surik was Severed further than anyone, including Traya, and even she admitted that. She even talks about how she "sought to understand" how Surik could give up the Force and still live, which proves that the circumstances weren't even remotely the same in her case.

You're reaching desperately.

Surik is unique in that she severed herself from the Force willingly, enough to create a wound. Traya wasn't and she sought to regain her Force abilities. Despite her hatred of the Force she was never able to actually reject it. The fact is that Traya was stripped of the Force and didn't die from the experience. She was hit by the same attack as that which killed so those on Katarr and the Jedi Council Members.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She couldn't even TK her saber on a colossal geyser of DS energies. What makes you think that she can successfully bypass the Force Senses of Sion and Nihilus (who were right in front of her) as a non-Force sensitive, lol?

She was just brought to the brink of death itself and miraculously survived. The game files have her vomiting blood after she gets hit by Sion.

She'd just had the Force stripped from her, I doubt they'd have felt much of anything from her regardless. I never said it was a force ability she was using.

So whats your explanation of her surviving? How did they not tell?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nowhere is it stated that it's an instakill. The only reason you'd think that is because it's killed the life on Katarr, who were simply too weak to resist his power. Traya's survival is proof that it doesn't kill all.

It also killed the Jedi Council Members. Like I said, it doesn't matter if Traya survived or that others plausibly could as well. She was stripped of the Force and they would be too. Nihilus would snuff them like a candle.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Surik is unique in that she severed herself from the Force willingly, enough to create a wound.

Which is why your comparison between her and Traya makes no sense.

Traya wasn't and she sought to regain her Force abilities.

Right. She was Severed to be a pretty standard extent.

The fact is that Traya was stripped of the Force and didn't die from the experience.

Traya talks about how that's incomparable to the Exile's experience at the end of the game. And plus, there's a lot of others who have survived being stripped of the Force - Ulic Qel-Droma, Jacen Solo, Ben Solo, Kyle Katarn, etc.

She was hit by the same attack as that which killed so those on Katarr and the Jedi Council Members.

Which is just proof of how powerful she is.

So whats your explanation of her surviving? How did they not tell?

I don't know for sure. I'm just saying that as a non-Force sensitive, Kreia wouldn't have been able to use Hibernation Trance, which is essentially a Healing power. But as Atris said, it's harder to sense the Force from someone who has been Severed in the past.

KotOR II is filled with plot discrepancies. I'm hardly eager to add one more to the stack.

It also killed the Jedi Council Members. Like I said, it doesn't matter if Traya survived or that others plausibly could as well. She was stripped of the Force and they would be too. Nihilus would snuff them like a candle.

There's a point at which Nihilus can't do this (ie. Sidious, Vitiate, Abeloth, etc.) - Traya explains how it works. You literally have to Sever the guy's connection to life and the Force, and feed on the death that is caused as a result. Nihilus obviously can't do that to beings more powerful than himself. The fact that he's killed countless weaker beings doesn't negate that, lol.

Very nice therad Nova 👆
The only more useful/better one, I can think of, is Silvers Mace vs Palpatine.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which is why your comparison between her and Traya makes no sense.

Traya's connection to the Force would still be severed. Merely severing the connections between life and the Force doesn't automatically kill you unless you require the Force to such an extent that you die without a connection to it. For Meetra, she was able to survive without the connection between herself (life) and the Force. Traya did basically the same thing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya talks about how that's incomparable to the Exile's experience at the end of the game. And plus, there's a lot of others who have survived being stripped of the Force - Ulic Qel-Droma, Jacen Solo, Ben Solo, Kyle Katarn, etc.

Not to the same extent of what this technique does to someone.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Which is just proof of how powerful she is.

How powerful she is is irrelevant. She was rendered absolutely powerless, her survival had nothing to do with the force after that occurred.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I don't know for sure. I'm just saying that as a non-Force sensitive, Kreia wouldn't have been able to use Hibernation Trance, which is essentially a Healing power. But as Atris said, it's harder to sense the Force from someone who has been Severed in the past.

KotOR II is filled with plot discrepancies. I'm hardly eager to add one more to the stack.

Could be Kreia can do something similar to HT without needing to use the force. Afterall she does it at the start of the game when her connection would be extremely mild if not nonexistant iirc.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There's a point at which Nihilus can't do this (ie. Sidious, Vitiate, Abeloth, etc.)

No, there isn't. You're just assuming there is based on nothing.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You literally have to Sever the guy's connection to life and the Force, and feed on the death that is caused as a result.

A technique against which there is no defense. Power cannot come into play here.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Nihilus obviously can't do that to beings more powerful than himself.

Why not?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that he's killed countless weaker beings doesn't negate that, lol.

Personally I doubt Sidious is more powerful than the entire council on Katarr but ok.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Traya's connection to the Force would still be severed. Merely severing the connections between life and the Force doesn't automatically kill you unless you require the Force to such an extent that you die without a connection to it. For Meetra, she was able to survive without the connection between herself (life) and the Force. Traya did basically the same thing.

Traya didn't do anything close. She admits it at the end:

"In times past and in times future, there are Jedi who will stop listening to the Force, those that will try to forget it, but maintain unconscious ties. And those, as in the past just as I, who have had the force stripped from them. But no Jedi ever made the choice you did. To sever ties so completely, so utterly, that it leaves a wound in the Force."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

Not to the same extent of what this technique does to someone.

Traya didn't survive that either.

How powerful she is is irrelevant. She was rendered absolutely powerless, her survival had nothing to do with the force after that occurred.

The fact that she wasn't completely severed is proof that she resisted the technique to a degree.

Could be Kreia can do something similar to HT without needing to use the force.

It seems to me as if she really was knocked unconscious and brought to the brink of death. They probably assumed that she couldn't have survived and left.

Afterall she does it at the start of the game when her connection would be extremely mild if not nonexistant iirc.

She exhibits TK, Sense, and TP, so yeah, she does have powers. Not to mention that the Exile regained her Force connection by siphoning it off Kreia, so obviously Kreia had a Force connection by this point.

No, there isn't. You're just assuming there is based on nothing.

Based on Traya's survival, which is more than what you have for your no-limits fallacy theory.

A technique against which there is no defense. Power cannot come into play here.

She clearly didn't suffer the full effects of the technique, even though it was intended by Nihilus that she did. There's no other explanation for it other than her simply being strong enough to do so.

You're dogmatically trying to avoid accepting my theory, pretty clearly because you don't want it to be true. Otherwise, seeing as it fits all the jigsaw pieces together, then there's no reason to not accept it.

There are things in the game that defy your theory, but none that defy mine.

Why not?

Because you can't sever the connections between one's life and the Force if that person is stronger than you, lol. If you can show me an example of that happening, then I'll believe you.

Personally I doubt Sidious is more powerful than the entire council on Katarr but ok.

Traya was, so...

Is Traya surviving a bad feat for Nihilus or a good one for her?

Originally posted by Azronger
Is Traya surviving a bad feat for Nihilus or a good one for her?

The latter. Nihilus still wiped out Katarr. That just means Traya compares favorably to Katarr, nothing more.