Nihilus/Traya's Drain Is Not An Instakill

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya didn't do anything close. She admits it at the end:

Which is why I said that Meetra was unique in that she chose to do that to herself. It's not like Meetra being a wound is unique because Nihilus exists.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya didn't survive that either.

Compelling argument. Consider this counterpoint though: Yes she did?

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that she wasn't completely severed is proof that she resisted the technique to a degree.

She was tho.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems to me as if she really was knocked unconscious and brought to the brink of death. They probably assumed that she couldn't have survived and left.

Ok.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She exhibits TK, Sense, and TP, so yeah, she does have powers. Not to mention that the Exile regained her Force connection by siphoning it off Kreia, so obviously Kreia had a Force connection by this point.

Pretty sure she does all of that after the very start of the game when both her and Meetra have started to regain their connections.

Regardless, wasn't Meetra also using a Hibernation Trance without a connection when you wake up in the kolto tank?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Based on Traya's survival, which is more than what you have for your no-limits fallacy theory.

Traya's survival can be explained in other ways than what you're suggesting.

Originally posted by SunRazer
She clearly didn't suffer the full effects of the technique, even though it was intended by Nihilus that she did. There's no other explanation for it other than her simply being strong enough to do so.

You're dogmatically trying to avoid accepting my theory, pretty clearly because you don't want it to be true. Otherwise, seeing as it fits all the jigsaw pieces together, then there's no reason to not accept it.

There are things in the game that defy your theory, but none that defy mine.

She didn't die. That doesn't prove anything.

You're raving. You really think this is something new to me? I've had this argument a dozen times in the past and it never gets any traction. "Nihilus cant kill sidious cuz he cant kill traya waa!" Please. All you're proving is your inability to accept that your headcanon's aren't real.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because you can't sever the connections between one's life and the Force if that person is stronger than you, lol.

Why not? You're just saying the same thing again. Explain why you cannot do that.

If I had a knife that can bypass any defense and then stabbed Superman in the chest with it, Superman would still get stabbed. His strength is irrelevant because he has no way of defending against my knife.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Traya was, so...

Concession accepted.

I'll respond tomorrow. But you're getting more desperate with each post. 👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
The latter. Nihilus still wiped out Katarr. That just means Traya compares favorably to Katarr, nothing more.

Katarr was a cheap-shot, though. Does Kreia actually have any feats that would put her on par hundreds of Jedi Masters collectively? Or is this one of those cases where the individual supposedly possesses the strength of hundreds of Force sensitives, but has really underwhelming feats (e.g. Vitiate)?

Why would I be desperate? Like I've said, the attack is unblockable. You're just fan canoning that someone stronger could ignore the drain based on nothing. And even if you survive you're rendered powerless. As ever Nihilus' drain stands as nigh unbeatable.

Also Traya isn't > a hundred Jedi and a world of force sensitives, lol.

Personally I do think that Vitiate and Nox could plausibly tank it though, since their powers come from other sources than merely their own. They'd be severely weakened tho.

Why would she have to be stronger than them collectively in the first place?

It's not like Katarr was instantly wiped from existence or that all those Jedi combined their powers to combat Nihilus. The fact that Traya is alive just shows incompetence on Nihilus and Scion's, as if he needed more showings of that, part than it is of her power in comparison to an entire planet of Force Sensitives. That is beyond ridiculous.

This is all nice and good razer but as others have shown, the only one who could defend against Nihilus was another wound in the force. Kreia couldn't, Nihilus' slaves on the ravagers couldn't, entire planets couldn't. So in short, no.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Why would she have to be stronger than them collectively in the first place?

Nova said it's a good feat for her, but I fail to see how it would be unless she's wields more Force strength than all those Jedi who died on Katarr combined. And I don't see any proof of that.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The fact that Traya is alive just shows incompetence on Nihilus and Scion's

If you speak on the scene when both confront Kreia, to be fair they hadn't wanted her dead. She was defenseless after the Nihilus's attack, Sion kicked her around for a bit and there was nothing she could do about it. If they'd wanted her dead, she'd have been.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCxcJugMe_Y

Traya is down for the count. Wanna argue that it's impressive for an old woman to still breathe after that, go right ahead, though let's not pretend she was in great shape. Now, tell me what stopped those guys from putting a lightsaber through her if they wanted to.

Traya's narration makes it clear, they humiliated her and threw her out.

They clearly wanted her dead, which is brought up quite a bit, including the very first scene Sion shows up in.

I am waiting for someone to either succeed or fail at debunking this -- preferably Ant -- and then I shall make my judgement. mmm

There's no need to debunk anything though.

Yes there is. At least Traya living, must be explained.

Sure thing, sock #5 for the day

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'm not saying that Traya's necessarily more powerful than all the Miraluka and Jedi combined (though it's not that ludicrous, since the Force signatures of singular beings have outweighed huge populations before), but that she survived Nihilus' Drain is impressive regardless.

Well, if that kind of Drain works similar to Force sever, is it possbile, that Nihilus needed Sion only to force Kreia to split her attention between both of them? Which could lowered her guard in the Force against a single attack of each of them? Which enabled Nihilus to Force push her and stun her for a moment, then they could sever her off, and she was alreeady beaten?

How Traya compares to the population of Katarr is in of itself fairly irrelevant. I don't have time to post an essay right now, but she's living proof of Nihilus' inability to just one-shot anybody. I'll respond to specific people when I get back from work.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus' drain basically is an insta-kill. There's no defense against it, it's destructive capabilities are almost unequaled and even if you manage to survive you're stripped of the Force and defenseless. The idea that people more powerful than him could block it is total bunk imo. The only beings I'd buy that from is the One's purely because they're literal gods.

Nihilus didn't use his big boy drain on Traya.

YouTube video

1:08 we see Nihilus attempt to use his big boy drain on the Exile, with it failing because she was a Wound.

YouTube video

55 or so seconds in we see that this is not what Nihilus did to Traya.

Furthermore, we know from the game that others can sever one's tie to the Force.

YouTube video

5:10, the remaining Jedi council confirm they can sever people from the Force, just like Nihilus did to Traya. Furthermore, we see the form the big boy drain takes when Traya uses it to kill them at 8:42. Like when Nihilus used it, it took the form of a Force Drain power in-game. I don't know why it was purple, but IIRC that is the same form it takes when the Exile uses it if they choose to kill a master. Could have just been a conscious choice of differing color schemes between Nihilus and the Exile, don't know.

I mean, where is the evidence that Nihilus used his big boy drain to kill Traya? Why would the attempted draining of Traya be the only instance we see of it that doesn't come with the Force Drain animation?

Also, although that flowery "feeds on the death it causes" description is nice and all, doesn't it sort of seem like bullshit?

Nihilus' big boy drain is explicitly the same thing as what the sith assassins do and what Surik does with her party (drawing on their lives). If the technique feeds on death, why isn't Surik's party dead? How can the sith assassins feed off the Force power of others without killing you?

Now, if one wants to argue that saying Nihilus can one shot anyone with his big boy drain is a no-limits fallacy that's whatever, but there's no real reason to think he used it on Traya, nor is there any real evidence he needs to kill someone to use it.

Razer's point isn't that one needs kill the target for the drain to function, but merely that this technique, when fully performed, results in the death of the target. Ergo any expression of this technique that does not do so is in fact a half measure. An incomplete application.

Originally posted by NemeBro

Also, although that flowery "feeds on the death it causes" description is nice and all, doesn't it sort of seem like bullshit?

How so? KotOR II is full off unique Force concepts. It's not bullshit within KotOR II itself. I'll leave you to decide whether or not it's bullshit in the grand scheme of continuity.

Nihilus' big boy drain is explicitly the same thing as what the sith assassins do and what Surik does with her party (drawing on their lives). If the technique feeds on death, why isn't Surik's party dead? How can the sith assassins feed off the Force power of others without killing you?

Because it's not the complete version. Nihilus' power represents the pinnacle of the technique, which is what allows you to actually sever your opponents and feed on the ensuing death. The assassins wield a primitive version of the technique, which they obviously can't complete against Force users of any respectable caliber. That's why they're not killing anything at all despite Nihilus regularly doing so.

Now, if one wants to argue that saying Nihilus can one shot anyone with his big boy drain is a no-limits fallacy that's whatever, but there's no real reason to think he used it on Traya

The KotORCG makes it abundantly clear that Traya was the one who taught Nihilus how to devour worlds (ie. Katarr), and the irony was that Nihilus ended up using those same teachings on her.

A blind Sith Lord appears. She has felt his existence like a gaping wound in the Force. The Force, she explains, fuels his hunger, and she will show him how to devour worlds. The Sith and the Force are meaningless to him, but the hunger must be appeased.

Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-craving gift to radical heights – so effectively in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double cross.

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

It was Drain, just an incomplete application of it. That's why Traya was mostly but not completely severed.

nor is there any real evidence he needs to kill someone to use it.

He doesn't need to kill someone to use it. He needs to kill someone to complete it.