Nihilus/Traya's Drain Is Not An Instakill

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which is why I said that Meetra was unique in that she chose to do that to herself. It's not like Meetra being a wound is unique because Nihilus exists.

Nihilus didn't become a Wound in the Force by Severing himself, and both the game and KotORCG make it abundantly clear that Nihilus and the Exile's Wounds are different in nature - the latter source going so far as to claim that they're polar opposites.

Compelling argument. Consider this counterpoint though: Yes she did?

Nope. The technique was never fully carried out against her, since she was still able to regain her connection to the Force.

If it helps, let me word it like this - using Drain is not an instant-kill, but completing it is, since, well, they're dead if you complete it.

She was tho.

No, she wasn't. She later regained her connection to the Force and admitted that she wasn't completely severed.

Pretty sure she does all of that after the very start of the game when both her and Meetra have started to regain their connections.

Regardless, wasn't Meetra also using a Hibernation Trance without a connection when you wake up in the kolto tank?

Yes, that's my point. Kreia had already regained some of her powers by the time the game started.

And no, Meetra wasn't using a Hibernation Trance when she woke up. T3 stabilized her with medical supplies and she was brought to the kolto facility to make a full recovery.

Traya's survival can be explained in other ways than what you're suggesting.

It's not explained in the game at all. But that's besides the point. We don't need to explain it for me to prove my point.

She didn't die. That doesn't prove anything.

It proves that Nihilus didn't fully carry out the process of Drain against her, yeah.

You're raving. You really think this is something new to me? I've had this argument a dozen times in the past and it never gets any traction. "Nihilus cant kill sidious cuz he cant kill traya waa!"

They must have failed to bring up all this evidence, then.

All this time, you've still failed to prove that Nihilus' Drain instantly kills anything he even tries to use it on. My point is that his usages don't always fully succeed, or succeed at all.

Please. All you're proving is your inability to accept that your headcanon's aren't real.

This isn't head-canon. It's evidence from the game. What you're showing, on the other hand, is blatant denial of evidence from both the game and KotORCG, which to me, seems like you don't want your head-canons to be challenged.

Why not? You're just saying the same thing again. Explain why you cannot do that.

For the same reason that Exar Kun resisted Odan-Urr's Sever Force and Nox withstood Paladius' Sever Force. They were just stronger. If someone's connection to the Force is beyond your ability to sever, then it just doesn't happen. In this case, you're not only severing that, but their (or their Force connection's) connection to life itself.

If I had a knife that can bypass any defense and then stabbed Superman in the chest with it, Superman would still get stabbed. His strength is irrelevant because he has no way of defending against my knife.

The stab itself doesn't kill anyone. It's the blood loss/internal punctures that do so, and when you stab Superman, that doesn't happen. So you can plunge your knife into his chest, but it does nothing. Thanks for proving my point.

Nihilus can try to use Drain against stronger beings, he just won't be successful in carrying it out.

Concession accepted.

Yours? Yes, it is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Why would I be desperate?

As a strong supporter of the theory that I've just debunked, why wouldn't you be?

Like I've said, the attack is unblockable.

Which doesn't mean it can't be resisted.

You're just fan canoning that someone stronger could ignore the drain based on nothing. And even if you survive you're rendered powerless.

What's great is that you can't prove that it's an instakill and you're falling back on deflecting my points as fan-canon in spite of the abundant evidence from both the game and supporting material (KotORCG) in my favor.

Nihilus can use Drain on whoever he likes. It won't kill them unless he finishes the process, which he didn't against Traya since she wasn't completely severed from the Force and certainly not severed from life. He did against Katarr and Traya did against the Council, because their targets not only died but ended up being absences in the Force, since they were completely severed from it.

As ever Nihilus' drain stands as nigh unbeatable.

The evidence in your favor is outstanding.

Also Traya isn't > a hundred Jedi and a world of force sensitives, lol.

You said she's more powerful than the Council on the planet, which I agreed with because it was just Vandar, Zhar and Dorak. Hardly beyond Vrook/Kavar/Zez by much, if at all.

Stronger than millions of Miraluka and nearly a hundred Jedi? Obviously not.

Personally I do think that Vitiate and Nox could plausibly tank it though, since their powers come from other sources than merely their own. They'd be severely weakened tho.

This isn't particularly distinct from my style of argument, so by your logic, it's fan canon.

Originally posted by NemeBro

I mean, where is the evidence that Nihilus used his big boy drain to kill Traya? Why would the attempted draining of Traya be the only instance we see of it that doesn't come with the Force Drain animation?

Missed this earlier (my response to the rest of your post is the last post on the last page), but regarding why there was no animation - it's probably off-panel.

And no, it's not the only instance of it being done off-panel. The very video you linked with the Masters explaining the Exile's condition proves otherwise. In it, they reveal that the Exile has unconsciously fed on everyone they killed to become stronger. That's never represented through an animation, which is why when Sion and Traya die (or when any Force user dies after the Council's revelation scene), the Drain effect doesn't show up either. The Exile already knows about it.

The reason we get the purple tendrils in the DS version where she kills the Masters is because she doesn't know what it is, and Kreia explains it to her. Moreover, the script reveals that this was only supposed to happen the first time she killed a Master, which makes sense since for some reason the dialogue options are all "what happened?" even if it's the second or third time you've killed a Master. It's actually an in-game glitch for it to be happening multiple times - it's only supposed to happen once, the first time you kill a Master - and only because you don't know what it is yet.

All this would explain Zez-Kai Ell?'s remark in the game that Nihilus was employing hit and run strikes against the Jedi and that the Jedi had no idea what they were dealing with. I can find the quote...

Originally posted by The_Tempest
All this would explain Zez-Kai Ell?'s remark in the game that Nihilus was employing hit and run strikes against the Jedi and that the Jedi had no idea what they were dealing with. I can find the quote...

All the Masters say that.

Also, all of this links into something else supported by the game - the Assassins get a very temporary buff when they use their Draining techniques, but Nihilus get stronger for much longer periods of time, since he's using a vastly greater version of the power.

I see. I definitely like the connection you established between this and Odan Urr's attempt to cut Kun off from the Force.

As I said, it's not the same type of severing, but it's similar in a number of ways and resisting it would operate in the same fashion.

Not that any of the Nihilus supporters have anything other than no-limits fallacies to argue their points, anyway.

But, but, but if you stabbed Superman...

What I am about to state is just my own personal theory from what information i've gathered and I won't claim this as fact.

I do not believe that in order for Nihilus to have drained every jedi/miraluka on Katarr that he had to have been more powerful than all of them combined, but rather any individual affected died due to the drain affecting each person separately and they were unable to survive the drain by themselves, and why Visas was spared because he made sure it didn't affect her. Consider this example: a dam wall broke and a huge wave of water is coming and there are hundreds of cars (weighing about 1-2 tons each) in it's destructive path. All of the cars are swept away because individually their weight cannot stand up against the wave. Now if you add all of their weights together into one car making it weigh a few hundred tons, then it would be likely to resist the strength of the wave. I believe this similar situation happened when Kreia drained the Jedi Council. I believe she was more powerful than any of them individually but combined I believe they would have been too much for her, and I base that opinion from the fact that they were each very powerful jedi and kreia is very powerful but not some OP crap they try to pull in the star wars comic books sometimes. This would be a sufficient explanation as to why Kreia survived Nihilus drain because he might not have been as powerful as kreia at the time of betrayal either because he hadn't surpassed her yet which i doubt because at that point he already gained massive power or more likely he was weakened from hunger. This could result in her not being completely drained and would explain how she could recover her powers.

Force drain drains the connection between the force and the target, which kills them if fully drained. Supposedly separation from one's force connection (not blocked from the power sever force) is supposed to always result in death, but somehow the exile survived being separated from his connection and became a wound in the force. Kreia admits that the exile is one of a kind for surviving such a thing which baffled her and why Kreia sought him out. This contradicts Nihilus draining her completely because if she survived being completely separated from her force connection then the exile wouldn't be the only special one for surviving and kreia would also be a wound in the force. Also if Kreia was fully drained of her force connection then it wouldn't be possible for Kreia regain her own previous power before the drain. Regaining one's previous force connection is a sign that they had the light side power sever force used on them because they were simply blocked from using their power which has happened to other several notable characters in the Star Wars Universe or it could be a sign that the person's connection was never completely drained from force drain and they recovered. If fully drained she would become a wound in the force if she survives and her power would come from force bonds and feeding on death (just like the exile) which could explain how she became powerful again because she formed a very strong bond with the exile and they killed many throughout their journey but i do not believe that is the case with her. Now Kreia knows how to use the power force drain which shows that she was attacked with the force drain. She explained to the exile that the ability to feed on the force is something that can't be taught and can only be learned through experiencing it's affects first-hand, so the fact that she is able to use force drain on the jedi masters means nihilus must have used force drain on her. However, if force drain is only learned from experiencing such affects of it, and experiencing something of the sort is supposed to result in death then how in the world did the sith assassins learn such abilities? Kreia tells the exile that the sith assassins employ the same feeding on the force that nihilus does, but nihilus is the pinnacle of that ability. Continued feeding on the force eventually leads to something like nihilus, and for some reason they also have the ability to where they are more powerful and dangerous the more powerful in the force their prey is. She said these assassins are the results of "special teachings" but never explains what these teachings are, and from what she said about experiencing the effects first-hand one can logically assume that these assassins must have experienced being force drained and for them to survive they must not have been drained completely. Also, it is revealed that nihilus is basically the other version of the exile, and the exile is supposed to eventually become like nihilus if he keeps feeding on death like he unknowingly had been throughout his journey. If that's the case why is nihilus the only one with a hunger problem that weakens him if not satisfied? I never really understood why he was the only one who had the hunger since the beginning despite others feeding on the force like he does. The only explanation I can think of is the fact that he was on Malachor's surface so he experienced the worst of all compared to the exile, kreia, and the sith assassins so he unfortunately has the curse of always being hungry for force energy.

So in conclusion I believe that the sith assassins were purposefully force drained to a level where they would survive and learn the ability thus called their "special teachings", but somehow they also learned the proximity/enemy strength feeding ability as well which I don't understand. Kreia learned of this ability from being drained by Nihilus and surviving, and she survived not because Nihilus held back, (it's been shown they tried to kill her) but because at that time Nihilus was weakened enough from hunger. This resulted in her being almost drained completely but not fully so she was able to recover her powers later on. This situation would also preserve the fact that the exile is special because he would've been the only person to have been completely separated from the force and lived and became a wound in the force as a result.

I've just come to the conclusion that Kotor 2 has a lot of plot holes, some due to rushed production and some due to author negligence. Author negligence doesn't surprise me especially after Kreia's false/contradicting statement about the ancient sith on korriban at the tomb of tulak hord.

put it INsIDE ME

Originally posted by IndecentMortal
What I am about to state is just my own personal theory from what information i've gathered and I won't claim this as fact.

I do not believe that in order for Nihilus to have drained every jedi/miraluka on Katarr that he had to have been more powerful than all of them combined, but rather any individual affected died due to the drain affecting each person separately and they were unable to survive the drain by themselves, and why Visas was spared because he made sure it didn't affect her. Consider this example: a dam wall broke and a huge wave of water is coming and there are hundreds of cars (weighing about 1-2 tons each) in it's destructive path. All of the cars are swept away because individually their weight cannot stand up against the wave. Now if you add all of their weights together into one car making it weigh a few hundred tons, then it would be likely to resist the strength of the wave. I believe this similar situation happened when Kreia drained the Jedi Council. I believe she was more powerful than any of them individually but combined I believe they would have been too much for her, and I base that opinion from the fact that they were each very powerful jedi and kreia is very powerful but not some OP crap they try to pull in the star wars comic books sometimes. This would be a sufficient explanation as to why Kreia survived Nihilus drain because he might not have been as powerful as kreia at the time of betrayal either because he hadn't surpassed her yet which i doubt because at that point he already gained massive power or more likely he was weakened from hunger. This could result in her not being completely drained and would explain how she could recover her powers.

Force drain drains the connection between the force and the target, which kills them if fully drained. Supposedly separation from one's force connection (not blocked from the power sever force) is supposed to always result in death, but somehow the exile survived being separated from his connection and became a wound in the force. Kreia admits that the exile is one of a kind for surviving such a thing which baffled her and why Kreia sought him out. This contradicts Nihilus draining her completely because if she survived being completely separated from her force connection then the exile wouldn't be the only special one for surviving and kreia would also be a wound in the force. Also if Kreia was fully drained of her force connection then it wouldn't be possible for Kreia regain her own previous power before the drain. Regaining one's previous force connection is a sign that they had the light side power sever force used on them because they were simply blocked from using their power which has happened to other several notable characters in the Star Wars Universe or it could be a sign that the person's connection was never completely drained from force drain and they recovered. If fully drained she would become a wound in the force if she survives and her power would come from force bonds and feeding on death (just like the exile) which could explain how she became powerful again because she formed a very strong bond with the exile and they killed many throughout their journey but i do not believe that is the case with her. Now Kreia knows how to use the power force drain which shows that she was attacked with the force drain. She explained to the exile that the ability to feed on the force is something that can't be taught and can only be learned through experiencing it's affects first-hand, so the fact that she is able to use force drain on the jedi masters means nihilus must have used force drain on her. However, if force drain is only learned from experiencing such affects of it, and experiencing something of the sort is supposed to result in death then how in the world did the sith assassins learn such abilities? Kreia tells the exile that the sith assassins employ the same feeding on the force that nihilus does, but nihilus is the pinnacle of that ability. Continued feeding on the force eventually leads to something like nihilus, and for some reason they also have the ability to where they are more powerful and dangerous the more powerful in the force their prey is. She said these assassins are the results of "special teachings" but never explains what these teachings are, and from what she said about experiencing the effects first-hand one can logically assume that these assassins must have experienced being force drained and for them to survive they must not have been drained completely. Also, it is revealed that nihilus is basically the other version of the exile, and the exile is supposed to eventually become like nihilus if he keeps feeding on death like he unknowingly had been throughout his journey. If that's the case why is nihilus the only one with a hunger problem that weakens him if not satisfied? I never really understood why he was the only one who had the hunger since the beginning despite others feeding on the force like he does. The only explanation I can think of is the fact that he was on Malachor's surface so he experienced the worst of all compared to the exile, kreia, and the sith assassins so he unfortunately has the curse of always being hungry for force energy.

So in conclusion I believe that the sith assassins were purposefully force drained to a level where they would survive and learn the ability thus called their "special teachings", but somehow they also learned the proximity/enemy strength feeding ability as well which I don't understand. Kreia learned of this ability from being drained by Nihilus and surviving, and she survived not because Nihilus held back, (it's been shown they tried to kill her) but because at that time Nihilus was weakened enough from hunger. This resulted in her being almost drained completely but not fully so she was able to recover her powers later on. This situation would also preserve the fact that the exile is special because he would've been the only person to have been completely separated from the force and lived and became a wound in the force as a result.

I've just come to the conclusion that Kotor 2 has a lot of plot holes, some due to rushed production and some due to author negligence. Author negligence doesn't surprise me especially after Kreia's false/contradicting statement about the ancient sith on korriban at the tomb of tulak hord.