Captain America vs. Rorschach/Nite Owl

Originally posted by h1a8
About 1.5ft I can agree with that. She was about 8ft away from Ozy but the nozzle was about 6ft away from him. So let's go with the 6ft. But Ozy moved only well after the bullet entered the air. In one scene the gun goes off (you see the flash and the bullet travel at least 1ft away from the nozzle) and in the next scene you see Ozy moves for the first time (a split moment after the flash). This means that Ozy moved when the bullet was between 1-3ft from the nozzle. So He actually moved faster than your guesstimate.

But what makes your post moot is that it ALWAYS take a fraction of the speed in order to block or parry ANY ATTACK. So if Cap punches with 1/5 of the speed of a bullet (which is generous) then Ozy needs to only move about 1/10th the speed of a bullet. Also, Ozy had to close his hands fast enough before the bullet bounced off his hand.

And I have already proven that Ozy used bullet speed perceptions. I'll post the proof again.

At no time was the bullet ever visible. Stop making numbers up.

We saw the flash and the ingition (w/c always comes before the slug). That's it.

Bullets don't "bounce off" body armor (like kevlar), they embed themselves. Even when there is armor plating. How do you not know this?

No, what makes this argument moot is your insistence on using an outlier noncombat "feat" (w/c required specific conditions to be met before he was even able to pull it off) and basing how Ozy would fight on average on it.

Noncombat "feats" are only relevant if there are no examples of Ozy fighting. Unfortunately for you, there are multiple showings where we can draw how Ozy would behave in a fight.

Your argument on "bullet time" perception is predicated on a false assumption of "no other possible explanation". When a simple "he anticipated the timing and aim blocked" explained it easily.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
At no time was the bullet ever visible. Stop making numbers up.

We saw the flash and the ingition (w/c always comes before the slug). That's it.

Bullets don't "bounce off" body armor (like kevlar), they embed themselves. Even when there is armor plating. How do you not know this?

No, what makes this argument moot is your insistence on using an outlier noncombat "feat" (w/c required specific conditions to be met before he was even able to pull it off) and basing how Ozy would fight on average on it.

Noncombat "feats" are only relevant if there are no examples of Ozy fighting. Unfortunately for you, there are multiple showings where we can draw how Ozy would behave in a fight.

Your argument on "bullet time" perception is predicated on a false assumption of "no other possible explanation". When a simple "he anticipated the timing and aim blocked" explained it easily.

That wasn't kevlar. The bullet didn't penetrate at all. That means it would have bounced off (elastic collision).

And you are trolling by ignoring my proof to Ozy having bulletspeed perceptions even if he possibly was able to predict exactly when the bullet would arrive.

Note: I proved that it was impossible for him to predict when the bullet will arrive solely based off the trigger pull and other things you named. Read the proof.

Originally posted by h1a8
What? A bullet will have traveled several feet or more after the flash is over. We see the flash completely (beginning and end of the flash) then afterwards Ozy moves for the first time. The bullet has traveled at least several feet before Ozy even begins to move.

That wasn't kevlar. The bullet didn't penetrate at all. That means it would have bounced off (elastic collision).

And you are trolling by ignoring my proof to Ozy having bulletspeed perceptions even if he possibly was able to predict exactly when the bullet would arrive.

Note: I proved that it was impossible for him to predict when the bullet will arrive solely based off the trigger pull and other things you named. Read the proof.

The ignition and flash is all we saw. We don't know where the bullet was as it was never shown. Basing the distance on muzzle flash is a poor indicator (a weak attempt at logic at best) as visibility time of the flash can vary in the real world and, in fiction, can be based on the poor guesswork from the effects team (as it is irrelevant to the story). Seriously, this is a desperate line of logic if I ever saw one.

Accusing ppl of trolling if they disagree with your flimsy logic is a classic troll move fyi. One of the reasons why I cannot treat you with any kind of respect. It is obvious what your motivations are.

Never said it was kevlar. The fact that the bullet stuck to his glove and had to pulled out already disproves your whole "bounce off" theory.

Being able to move within a very specific timeframe within a very minute margin of error is not impossible. If you anticipate something perfectly (and with luck) it is statistically possible to guess nigh-perfect timing.

I think you are confusing "reaction" to "anticipation".

Serious question: we've seen how Ozy fights. Why do you keep avoiding having to base fights off this more relevant evidence? Is it because you know you would never be able to win if you use the more relevant showings as a basis?

Originally posted by Ascendancy
When I saw h1's post on page one I knew I could just skip to the last page. I've literally never seen anyone else on these forums so willing to ignore logic.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
The ignition and flash is all we saw. We don't know where the bullet was as it was never shown. Basing the distance on muzzle flash is a poor indicator (a weak attempt at logic at best) as visibility time of the flash can vary in the real world and, in fiction, can be based on the poor guesswork from the effects team (as it is irrelevant to the story). Seriously, this is a desperate line of logic if I ever saw one.

Accusing ppl of trolling if they disagree with your flimsy logic is a classic troll move fyi. One of the reasons why I cannot treat you with any kind of respect. It is obvious what your motivations are.

Never said it was kevlar. The fact that the bullet stuck to his glove and had to pulled out already disproves your whole "bounce off" theory.

Being able to move within a very specific timeframe within a very minute margin of error is not impossible. If you anticipate something perfectly (and with luck) it is statistically possible to guess nigh-perfect timing.

I think you are confusing "reaction" to "anticipation".

Serious question: we've seen how Ozy fights. Why do you keep avoiding having to base fights off this more relevant evidence? Is it because you know you would never be able to win if you use the more relevant showings as a basis?

A bullet will have traveled more than 2 feet by the time the flash is over. For you to argue against that shows that you are arguing just to win a debate and not to actually ascertain the truth. And it shows that you know nothing about the topic. Have you ever seen a slow motion bullet scene? There are a bazillion of them online. After the flash fire ends, the bullet is already many feet ahead of the nozzle.

Here's one of many. And I can spam the thread with them.

YouTube video

Basically, you are making stuff up at this point. Which is definitely trolling. I'm serious!

You are basically saying that being accurate to the 0.001 of a second was most likely luck? You know he caught the dead center of his hand right?

So you result to making stuff up in order to discredit the bullet catching feat. This shows that you are on troll mode and are only debating just to win the argument.

I was wrong about the hand closing bit. I forgot that it did stick in the glove.

But in the fact is, Ozy began to move well after the bullet was in the air. And he used superhuman reflexes and perceptions to be able to catch the bullet. This alone proves that he can easily and casually defend against Cap's attacks.

The fact remains we have multiple examples of Ozy fighting and he cannot fight anywhere close to the speed you claim you can.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The fact remains we have multiple examples of Ozy fighting and he cannot fight anywhere close to the speed you claim you can.

How about not need to. If someone punches less than 1/10th of the speed of a bullet then why do they have to move at the speed of a bullet to parry them? If someone is operating far below the speed of one's limit then there is no need to move at one's limit.

Rorshach punched faster than any punch thrown by Cap (visually). Yet Ozy easily parried him.

So instead of you backing up your claim you want me to disprove it, that is not how debates work. You made the claim, therefore you have to prove it.

Originally posted by Silent Master
So instead of you backing up your claim you want me to disprove it, that is not how debates work. You made the claim, therefore you have to prove it.

Originally posted by h1a8
lol, you claimed that he cannot. Reread your post.

I said that he couldn't fight as fast as you claimed he could.

Originally posted by Silent Master
I said that he couldn't fight as fast as you claimed he could.

Prove it. Prove that he can't fight as I claimed.

I claimed he can easily parry Cap's attacks.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove it. Prove that he can't fight as I claimed.

I claimed he can easily parry Cap's attacks.

You really don't know how debates work, do you?

Originally posted by h1a8
A bullet will have traveled more than 2 feet by the time the flash is over. For you to argue against that shows that you are arguing just to win a debate and not to actually ascertain the truth. And it shows that you know nothing about the topic. Have you ever seen a slow motion bullet scene? There are a bazillion of them online. After the flash fire ends, the bullet is already many feet ahead of the nozzle.

Here's one of many. And I can spam the thread with them.

YouTube video

Basically, you are making stuff up at this point. Which is definitely trolling. I'm serious!

You are basically saying that being accurate to the 0.001 of a second was most likely luck? You know he caught the dead center of his hand right?

So you result to making stuff up in order to discredit the bullet catching feat. This shows that you are on troll mode and are only debating just to win the argument.

I was wrong about the hand closing bit. I forgot that it did stick in the glove.

But in the fact is, Ozy began to move well after the bullet was in the air. And he used superhuman reflexes and perceptions to be able to catch the bullet. This alone proves that he can easily and casually defend against Cap's attacks.

Stop strawmanning. I never argued against a bullet being ahead of it's flash (only the ignition). I argued that we don't see the bullet in the shot in question so we can't arbitrarily assign distances that was never shown on screen.

But go ahead and post .38 special slo mo shots which show the bullet several feet ahead of the flash. Don't be using pistol slo mo videos, tho. As the flash profle of a closed pistol chamber/barrel + different rounds will be different from an open cylinder of a .38 revolver.

I'd love to see it. As i couldn't find it in YT. I'll wait.

After which we can go ahead and and get a mod ruling on basing "feats" off something as ambiguous and prone to error as SFX team's interpretation of something as unspecific as a revolver's flash time vs simple on screen portrayal. Cuz it seems that you are stuck with this and debating this silly line of logic at this point will be a waste of both our time.

Do your math. A .38 special bullet travelling at around 700 fps going crossing 6-8 feet of distance would require around .01 seconds, not .001 seconds. With above-human superhuman intellect (to anticipate timing) a superhuman training regimen (to understand how fast one's reflexes are) and superhuman reflexes, it is not impossible to get within that level of timing. Hell, I doubt it's even that hard. It really comes down to limb speed and mental timing. Not perception.

Here, let's test that hypothesis via scientific process (and I call on all other posters to do the same):

I decided to test how close I can get to 1.11 seconds on my phone's stopwatch and how many attempts to get to that point. First 1.11 was at my 21st attempt (took some getting used to). Second was at attempt 36 and 3rd at 44. 3 succesful attempts under 50 tries to be precise within a .01 level of accuracy. A near middle age untrained human. I don't doubt young pro gamers with their extreme reflexes would do far far better. I did it by waiting til .9 before thinking to "push" understanding the lag time between my mind and finger reflexes.

So, yeah, it basically comes down to knowing when to move by anticipating the timing and using one's speed to accomplish the task.

Aim block. Him catching it at the center isn't impossible.

Discredit the "feat"? No, just discrediting some desperate wanking.

Superhuman perception and reflexes, sure. Already said it was. But not as fast as you are making it up to be.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove it. Prove that he can't fight as I claimed.

Do you understand how burden of proof works?

Also, waiting on the answer to this:

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Serious question: we've seen how Ozy fights. Why do you keep avoiding having to base fights off this more relevant evidence? Is it because you know you would never be able to win if you use the more relevant showings as a basis?

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Stop strawmanning. I never argued against a bullet being ahead of it's flash (only the ignition). I argued that we don't see the bullet in the shot in question so we can't arbitrarily assign distances that was never shown on screen.

But go ahead and post .38 special slo mo shots which show the bullet several feet ahead of the flash. Don't be using pistol slo mo videos, tho. As the flash profle of a closed pistol chamber/barrel + different rounds will be different from an open cylinder of a .38 revolver.

I'd love to see it. As i couldn't find it in YT. I'll wait.

After which we can go ahead and and get a mod ruling on basing "feats" off something as ambiguous and prone to error as SFX team's interpretation of something as unspecific as a revolver's flash time vs simple on screen portrayal. Cuz it seems that you are stuck with this and debating this silly line of logic at this point will be a waste of both our time.

Do your math. A .38 special bullet travelling at around 700 fps going crossing 6-8 feet of distance would require around .01 seconds, not .001 seconds. With above-human superhuman intellect (to anticipate timing) a superhuman training regimen (to understand how fast one's reflexes are) and superhuman reflexes, it is not impossible to get within that level of timing. Hell, I doubt it's even that hard. It really comes down to limb speed and mental timing. Not perception.

Here, let's test that hypothesis via scientific process (and I call on all other posters to do the same):

I decided to test how close I can get to 1.11 seconds on my phone's stopwatch and how many attempts to get to that point. First 1.11 was at my 21st attempt (took some getting used to). Second was at attempt 36 and 3rd at 44. 3 succesful attempts under 50 tries to be precise within a .01 level of accuracy. A near middle age untrained human. I don't doubt young pro gamers with their extreme reflexes would do far far better. I did it by waiting til .9 before thinking to "push" understanding the lag time between my mind and finger reflexes.

So, yeah, it basically comes down to knowing when to move by anticipating the timing and using one's speed to accomplish the task.

Aim block. Him catching it at the center isn't impossible.

Discredit the "feat"? No, just discrediting some desperate wanking.

Superhuman perception and reflexes, sure. Already said it was. But not as fast as you are making it up to be.

There was 6in of space shown in front of the gun. The beginning of the gun shot was shown in real time. In other words, we see both the initial gun shot and we see the flash fire in REAL TIME. There was much time elapsed after the initial shot so that the bullet had to travel at least several feet or more before Ozy moved. Bullets are pretty much instant in real time. This is common sense.

And your logic is wrong. My claim is that if Ozy's timing is off by 0.001 seconds then he will miss the bullet. Not that it takes 0.001 seconds to arrive.

And lol at your crudely rounded 0.01 (like accuracy of time isn't important). The true number is much less than that. A. 38 special bullet can travel up to 960ft/s. So using your lower estimate 700ft/s it would take 0.0057 seconds to travel 4ft. If Ozy is off by 0.001 of a second then his hand will miss the bullet as the bullet will travel a difference of 8.4 inches in that time frame.

I say that the bullet moved at least 3ft first, going by how much time was elapsed Or the fact that the flash fire had ended. That means Ozy first moved when it was 3ft away or less.

And you are a troll or an idiot (I'm leaning towards troll) if you say that a bullet will not have traveled more than 3 feet by the time the flash fire has ended. All flash fires from guns last more than. 005 of a second. Otherwise a human couldn't see it.

Either way, the discussion is not worth debating with you since you are arguing against basic facts and common sense. You are making stuff up not shown or proven in the movie. If something is not shown or alluded to in a movie then it doesn't exist. Otherwise, you are making stuff up (which is trolling). You act as this stuff happened in real life and we are trying to hypothesize what could have really happened.

And I never given the feat a certain number or measurement. I used general terms like "Ozy caught a bullet". So for you to say "not as fast as you are making it to be" is a lie. Ozy caught a bullet.
Thus anything significantly slower he should be able to perceive and react much easier. That's my argument. Nothing else.

Ozy doesn't need to move even close to the speed of a bullet to parry or defend against one of Cap's attacks. The bullet feat gives him a Huge cushion to how slow he can choose to be and still manage to defend.

Originally posted by Nibedicus
Do you understand how burden of proof works?

Also, waiting on the answer to this:

The Ozy fights don't contradict his bullet feat. I already addressed this.

If an attack is moving far slower than a bullet then Ozy doesn't need to move as fast. He can casually defend without exerting himself to much. We saw how casually he was blocking and parrying both their attacks. And both were attacking with speeds faster than any attack we seen from all the Cap and Avengers movies (Cap and WS). And that's if you are basing actual speed with visual speed.

IOW, you can't back up your claim.

Originally posted by Silent Master
IOW, you can't back up your claim.

I did, over and over again. Ozy can easily defend against Caps attacks. That's my claim. I proven it several ways.
1. Bullet feat
And
2. Casually defending against attacks that were visually faster than caps attacks.

The only way my back up fails is if both fail (not one). So you would have to Refute both.

Originally posted by h1a8
I did, over and over again. Ozy can easily defend against Caps attacks. That's my claim. I proven it several ways.
1. Bullet feat
And
2. Casually defending against attacks that were visually faster than caps attacks.

The only way my back up fails is if both fail (not one). So you would have to Refute both.

At no point have you ever backed up your claim in regards to Ozy being able to fight at bullet-time speeds. please stop lying.

Originally posted by h1a8
There was 6in of space shown in front of the gun. The beginning of the gun shot was shown in real time. In other words, we see both the initial gun shot and we see the flash fire in REAL TIME. There was much time elapsed after the initial shot so that the bullet had to travel at least several feet or more before Ozy moved. Bullets are pretty much instant in real time. This is common sense.

And your logic is wrong. My claim is that if Ozy's timing is off by 0.001 seconds then he will miss the bullet. Not that it takes 0.001 seconds to arrive.

And lol at your crudely rounded 0.01 (like accuracy of time isn't important). The true number is much less than that. A. 38 special bullet can travel up to 960ft/s. So using your lower estimate 700ft/s it would take 0.0057 seconds to travel 4ft. If Ozy is off by 0.001 of a second then his hand will miss the bullet as the bullet will travel a difference of 8.4 inches in that time frame.

I say that the bullet moved at least 3ft first, going by how much time was elapsed Or the fact that the flash fire had ended. That means Ozy first moved when it was 3ft away or less.

And you are a troll or an idiot (I'm leaning towards troll) if you say that a bullet
will not have traveled more than 3 feet by the time the flash fire has ended. All flash fires from guns last more than. 005 of a second. Otherwise a human couldn't see it.

Either way, the discussion is not worth debating with you since you are arguing against basic facts and common sense. You are making stuff up not shown or proven in the movie. If something is not shown or alluded to in a movie then it doesn't exist. Otherwise, you are making stuff up (which is trolling). You act as this stuff happened in real life and we are trying to hypothesize what could have really happened.

And I never given the feat a certain number or measurement. I used general terms like "Ozy caught a bullet". So for you to say "not as fast as you are making it to be" is a lie. Ozy caught a bullet.
Thus anything significantly slower he should be able to perceive and react much easier. That's my argument. Nothing else.

Ozy doesn't need to move even close to the speed of a bullet to parry or defend against one of Cap's attacks. The bullet feat gives him a Huge cushion to how slow he can choose to be and still manage to defend.

Um no. If you're going to use real time speeds for the initial gunshot, then there was no way the bullet would have travelled wayyyy past Ozy by the time the camera cut to him.

It is either the shot was done in slo mo consistent with the shot or the shot was done in real time and I can easily claim that it is simple SFX timing error. You can't have it both ways simply so it would fit your argument. Nice try, tho.

Um no. Your logic is wrong. All Ozy had to do was be BEAT the bullet to the destination, not time it within a perfect time position with not even a fractional margin of error. So all he had to do was time his movement on or fractionally before or after (0:00) of the shot and simply have the reflex speed to beat the shot from (0:00) to (0:01). A fractional margin of error (even at 0.001+) would have been irrelevant if he still had the speed to outrace the bullet and if my experiment proves anything, the timing would not be too difficult for a superhuman if he managed to anticipate it.

This is basic stuff. How do you not get this?

Here are some visual aids for your benefit:

<-----Gunfire -----------> Catch
<-----(0:00)------------->(0:01)

Any of the ---- signifies his margin of error.

NOT:

Gunfire > Miss > Catch > Miss
(0:00) (0.0099) (0:01) (0:011)

Wrong again. A .38 special 110 gr hollow point travels at 900 fps. And if you look at the slug Ozy pulled out, it is obviously not a hollow point. It looks like a standard LRN (lead round nose) bullet to me w/c goes from 670-770 fps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

If you're going to wiki and act like an armchair expert, the least you can do is perform due diligence and read thru the material. Jeez.

BS. Pulling arbitrary numbers =/= proof. You will excuse me if I disregard this BS entirely until you provide proof.

So go ahead and provide me with .38 special slo mo shots or any kind of evidence that would consistently prove the distances you claim. Cuz you would pardon me if I call you full of shit as I have easily and constantly proven you wrong about a lot of things in the past. I'm willing to accept solid evidence and would love to revise my position once evidence is provided but your word has less worth in these here parts than the giant turd I just shat a few hours ago. At least that could have been used as fertilizer. If you want to be taken seriously, don't be lazy, do your due diligence and provide research/sources.

Til then I will retain my position that the use of flash visibility is a poor and inconsistent metric of the distance a .38 special bullet would have traveled due to its RL inconsistency and the possibility of SFX errors making the metric even less dependable.

Lol at your weak insults tho. That at least was very entertaining. Your use of "logic and common sense" is terrible (downright lazy most of the time) so you criticizing my logic actually means I'm doing something right.

Oh wait! Look at this:

Originally posted by h1a8
If something is not shown or alluded to in a movie then it doesn't exist. Otherwise, you are making stuff up (which is trolling).

😂

Gotta save this for when you start making up shit again.

You know about your whole "making stuff up" accusation? Pls post and quote anything in this thread what I made up. Quote it. Come on. I challenge you to quote it. Otherwise, it's just classic projection.

Um no. Nice lie. But no. You said he had bullet speed reactions. Meaning equal or very close to the speed of a bullet. That is a VERY SPECIFIC measurement:

Originally posted by h1a8
I guess you didn't read my post. I actually proved that Ozy used bullet speed reactions.

He caught a bullet under very special conditions. An outlier "feat" that is impressive but does not give him reflexes equal to a bullet if we factor in anticipation and distance traveled. I am willing to accept that he has shown a good fraction of a bullet's speed under very special conditions, however.

Let me get this straight: So you think Ozy would beat Cap in a fight? Well, if so, I challenge you to a BZ:

Ozymandias vs Captain America Battlezone challenge to h1a8 from Nibedicus dated: Dec. 5, 2016 (my timezone). Standard rules apply.

Refusing would prove to everyone that you are just a troll who doesn't even believe in the crap you post.