DE and TPM Sidious vs Vitiate and Valkorian

Originally posted by Tondemonai
Since the starting distance is 100 meters, it's easy to assume that lightsabers will not be used at any point during this fight. IIRC there were no quotes about Sheev being the "strongest Sith who ever lived" by the time of TPM, other than the claims he made himself. It's foolish to take them at face value, given that he said these things in the heat of an intense moment (his killing of Plagueis). There's no reason for us to believe this claim, given that it is from a Sith who was proud that he had succeeded in killing his master. It's clear he was gloating, not making an educated statement. The only time we have real concrete statements of his being the greatest Sith ever come around RoTS, from reliable/credible sources. By this logic we can dismiss the "greatest Sith ever" wank.

The best feats we have for Sidious at this point are his small battles in the Plagueis novel, and having been stated to have surpassed his master. In Force only, I have Plagueis in the same tier as SoR Revan, who has been stated to be solidly inferior to Vitiate before the events of Ziost (granted this was only by days). Additionally, with regards to Force prowess, the Dread Masters are collectively comparable to Plagueis (still inferior, but not by a huge margin). Said Dread Masters were said to be "insignificant compared to the Emperor." We can draw from this that Plagueis is very noticeably below Vitiate. Logically speaking, we have no evidence that supports or reason to believe Sidious being as far above Plagueis. As a result, we can deduce that Vitiate is superior to Sidious as of TPM.

For those (like myself) who don't like going by statements alone, here are some feats for Vitiate that are superior to all of Sidious' own by this point. His domination of Revan (after actually taking the fight seriously) is a good example. Another is his complete domination of the strike team of HoT, Tol Braga, and others completely effortlessly. Sheev has done nothing of this level by TPM.

I'm not even going to bother getting into DE and Valkorion. That goes back and forth endlessly, but in this case there's really no arguing that DE can take out Valky before Vitiate overwhelms TPM Sheev.

Would you be down for a 1v1 debate with me on Sheev/Valkoriate?

It seems as though the DP backcover quote is being taken nowadays, in which case Plagueis would be canonically more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. Sidious surpassing Plagueis, then, would put an end to this debate.

And logically powerscaling from there, DE Sidious > Valkorion.

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems as though the DP backcover quote is being taken nowadays, in which case Plagueis would be canonically more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. Sidious surpassing Plagueis, then, would put an end to this debate.

And logically powerscaling from there, DE Sidious > Valkorion.

Nobody is taking it like that so that wouldn't work.

There are some that do, actually.

Originally posted by SunRazer
There are some that do, actually.

Good for those select few. Unfortunately the quote isn't objective or all encompassing so it's just confirmation bias for those who want to take it as gospel, and just a quote for others.

What's the standard for objectivity or encompassment here? I assume that your dismissal of such quotes would also apply to Vitiate's ones?

Originally posted by SunRazer
What's the standard for objectivity or encompassment here? I assume that your dismissal of such quotes would also apply to Vitiate's ones?

Yup because I want to establish a certain pattern here, especially if in future SWTOR chapters we get more and more Valkorion quotes. Otherwise I will throw it in the face of those taking Palpatine quotes at face value.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Yup because I want to establish a certain pattern here, especially if in future SWTOR chapters we get more and more Valkorion quotes. Otherwise I will throw it in the face of those taking Palpatine quotes at face value.

Valkorion's quotes in SWTOR would never apply to any characters past that time, so Plagueis and Palpatine and most of the characters we debate here would be safely excluded.

Palpatine has quotes from 2015 declaring him to be the most powerful Sith Lord, but regardless, sources do not have expiry dates. They have to be outright contradicted to be rendered null and void, not just because new characters are created. The way continuity works is that everything new is created under the assumption that it follows continuity unless that continuity is explicitly changed, which, as of yet, it hasn't been. Palpatine's been touted as the most powerful Sith Lord ever for decades, by a wide variety of authors and numerous different types of sources. It's one of the most unanimously supported facts in continuity.

Valkorion's quotes in SWTOR would never apply to any characters past that time, so Plagueis and Palpatine and most of the characters we debate here would be safely excluded.

Palpatine has quotes from 2015 declaring him to be the most powerful Sith Lord, but regardless, sources do not have expiry dates. They have to be outright contradicted to be rendered null and void, not just because new characters are created. The way continuity works is that everything new is created under the assumption that it follows continuity unless that continuity is explicitly changed, which, as of yet, it hasn't been.

They don't have to be explicitly contradicted, they can be implicitly contradicted (which has been done by Vitiate/Valkorion). And if you're going to sit there and say quotes are all encompassing even before newer information is given, then if a quote arises for Valkorion being the most powerful "of all time", it would include Plagueis/Palpatine and would be just as valid.

Originally posted by MS Warehouse
And none of the Plagueis/Palpatine quotes would apply to Vitiate, SWTOR, or anything written after the quotes..

No, because the sources for Vitiate's supremacy encompass only up to TOR (in-universe), and not after, hence, Plagueis and Palpatine are unaffected. Plagueis and Palpatine's quotes, on the other hand, do encompass history up to their time, which thus includes Valkorion. You also failed to account for the fact that Plagueis' quote came in 2012, which was after Vitiate's SWTOR debut, and Palpatine's quote came in 2015, which is also after Vitiate's appearance.

They don't have to be explicitly contradicted, they can be implicitly contradicted (which has been done by Vitiate/Valkorion). And if you're going to sit there and say quotes are all encompassing even before newer information is given, then if a quote arises for Valkorion being the most powerful "of all time", it would include Plagueis/Palpatine and would be just as valid.

Vitiate doesn't implicitly contradict anything.

If Vitiate gets a quote from a source that does include Palpatine, and the quote says that he's the most powerful, then yes, it's a valid retcon and he's then officially more powerful than Palpatine. But such a quote is yet to exist, so Palpatine's supremacy remains the one supported by material, and it's so widely supported that you can't really argue against it. Such an argument would mean a denial of decades of established (and as of yet, uncontradicted) continuity.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Would you be down for a 1v1 debate with me on Sheev/Valkoriate?

At some point in the near future, yes.

Should be interesting.

If it actually happens, sure. Most people agree but when it comes time they aren't interested. Cough; Warehouse.

Want to do a debate with me quanchi? I'd do canon Anakin vs someone of your choosing. 🙂

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Want to do a debate with me quanchi? I'd do canon Anakin vs someone of your choosing. 🙂

Team 1 solidly.

Originally posted by quanchi112
I've had my fair share of Anakin Skywalker. What other characters did you have in mind ?

Canon Grievous?

Originally posted by SunRazer
It seems as though the DP backcover quote is being taken nowadays, in which case Plagueis would be canonically more powerful than SWTOR Vitiate. Sidious surpassing Plagueis, then, would put an end to this debate.

And logically powerscaling from there, DE Sidious > Valkorion.

People tend to forget that Backcover hype is more of a marketing statement rather being an accurate assessment of the characters and lore in question.

Personally I've revised my stance to take quotes, including back cover quotes, into account if they confirm an issue that I was ambiguous on. I.E. Caedus and Vader after learning a little more about Caedus's capabilities and Plagueis and Vitiate. This applies to general quotes I didn't take into account before such as Vitiate > Nihilus.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
So Darth Bane > Vitiate?

People tend to forget that Backcover hype is more of a marketing statement rather being an accurate assessment of the characters and lore in question.

Stop using the Darth Bane quote. It only refers to dark side masters of his time, which were few and far between. It doesn't refer to all of history whatsoever.