Originally posted by SunRazer
Stop using the Darth Bane quote. It only refers to dark side masters of his time, which were few and far between. It doesn't refer to all of history whatsoever.
Do also keep in mind that Vitiate has been hyped as the most powerful Force-user ever.
I suppose that you understand that the word 'ever' is all-encompassing?
Running out of excuses? You haven't proved anything.
Yes, Vitiate's been referred to as the most powerful ever - in sources that only go up to his time. None of those sources ever refer to anything past TOR, because they're in-universe. Palpatine's quotes, on the other hand, are newer and do refer up to and of his time.
Vitiate doesn't implicitly contradict anything.If Vitiate gets a quote from a source that does include Palpatine, and the quote says that he's the most powerful, then yes, it's a valid retcon and he's then officially more powerful than Palpatine. But such a quote is yet to exist, so Palpatine's supremacy remains the one supported by material, and it's so widely supported that you can't really argue against it. Such an argument would mean a denial of decades of established (and as of yet, uncontradicted) continuity.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
And theoretically if someone is called the most powerful but someone else shows up that appears more impressive, that's can be considered an implicit contradiction.
The only way that would be considered a contradiction is if feats in SW were reliably consistent. As you point out all the time about Luke and the ancient Sith, feats aren't consistent.
So please explain to me how notoriously inconsistent things like feats in SW can contradict Word of God.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The only way that would be considered a contradiction is if feats in SW were reliably consistent. As you point out all the time about Luke and the ancient Sith, feats aren't consistent.So please explain to me how notoriously inconsistent things like feats in SW can contradict Word of God.
What do I point out about Luke and the Ancient sith, exactly? Also I'm waiting to see the quotes that include both Vitiate/Valkorion, rather than assuming these quotes automatically include every character created after the quotes.
Luke's feats are notoriously inconsistent and the ancient Sith have a glaring scarcity of feats. A vast number of Force users have better feats than Ludo Kressh's brick throwing, for example.
But in those contexts, you don't think feats matter. Here you say that feats do matter and matter enough that despite their inconsistencies, they can contradict Word of God.
They don't reconcile.
Originally posted by Ursumeles
You pointed out, that Lukes feats are very inconcistent, lol.
Also, iirc, the last Sidious>all quote was from 2015.
No, I pointed out Luke's inconsistent combat showings as proof that he's not going to ragdoll everybody. That doesn't negate his overall superiority. That's completely different. But since this devolved into trying to use quotes to establish superiority, Valkorion wasn't created until 2016.
Luke's feats are notoriously inconsistent and the ancient Sith have a glaring scarcity of feats. A vast number of Force users have better feats than Ludo Kressh's brick throwing, for example.But in those contexts, you don't think feats matter. Here you say that feats do matter and matter enough that despite their inconsistencies, they can contradict Word of God.
They don't reconcile.
.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
I want to know exactly what quotes include Vitiate/Valkorion. Please provide those. And theoretically if someone is called the most powerful but someone else shows up that appears more impressive, that's can be considered an implicit contradiction. So far I have seen exactly zero quotes that include Valkorion/Vitiate.
Just about all of Sidious' most powerful quotes include history up to his time, which would include Valkorion.
As for the 2015 quote, here it is:
With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.-- Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1
Not that I should be forced to resort to it, since there's no direct contradiction between Valkorion and any of Palpatine's older supremacy quotes, such as:
Spoiler:Emperor Zaarin? The idea isn't as ludicrous as it sounds. Demetrius Zaarin gambled everything on an audacious coup d'état and nearly killed the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known.--Insider #66: Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals
Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.-- Vader: The Ultimate Guide
When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."-- Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm
Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.-- The Complete Visual Dictionary
Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.-- The New Essential Chronology
Even Ulic Qel-Droma would be envious of Palpatine. He had succeeded where all others had failed in taming the Dark Side.-- The Dark Side Sourcebook
It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.-- Dark Empire Endnotes
Didn't Arcann claim that Valkorion was weaker than before? Even if not, I recall Ziost only being there to return Vitiate to full power. Is there anything that conclusively shows Valkorion's superiority to Vitiate?
Regardless, until Valkorion receives such an accolade that would contradict decades of source material written by a dozen different authors, I'm inclined to support Palpatine's claim to supremacy here.
As I said before, sources have no expiry date or statute of limitations. They can't be passively retconned just because newer things are introduced - such things are introduced under the expectation that they follow continuity unless otherwise shown (ie. a direct retcon). They can only be actively retconned with newer, directly contradicting statements.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Just about all of Sidious' most powerful quotes include history up to his time, which would include Valkorion.As for the 2015 quote, here it is:
Not that I should be forced to resort to it, since there's no direct contradiction between Valkorion and any of Palpatine's older supremacy quotes, such as:
Spoiler:
Most of those quotes have been debunked over the years as either incomplete, not including all the characters after the fact, etc. I'm not sure where the Legends quote falls in terms of canon, nor the Insider. The Vader quote seems to be his musings rather than an overall declaration. The greatest sith master quote I remember but am also not sure how that all encompassing or even includes Valkorion who, while born a sith, isn't one by the time he takes up his new name. The DE quote appears to be Luke's musings and is incredibly outdated, same with the NEC. So like I said, most of these can easily be debated. If you want to go with feats, DE Sidious is probably the closest in terms of having overall supremacy but these quotes mose definitely do not provide end all be all supremacy for Palpatine.
Didn't Arcann claim that Valkorion was weaker than before? Even if not, I recall Ziost only being there to return Vitiate to full power. Is there anything that conclusively shows Valkorion's superiority to Vitiate?
Razer provided the quotes, not me. I don't have to prove someone else's claim. You also dodged the ancient Sith.
As I said before, sources have no expiry date or statute of limitations. They can't be passively retconned just because newer things are introduced - such things are introduced under the expectation that they follow continuity unless otherwise shown (ie. a direct retcon). They can only be actively retconned with newer, directly contradicting statements.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Most of those quotes have been debunked over the years as either incomplete, not including all the characters after the fact, etc.
Incomplete? No idea what you're talking about. And even if it didn't include characters after the fact, it'd include characters before the fact, including Vitiate. You have nowhere to run, lol.
I'm not sure where the Legends quote falls in terms of canon, nor the Insider.
They work fine. They obviously refer to all of history and have far more credence than Valkorion's case, which is built entirely on speculation and arbitrary judgment.
The Vader quote seems to be his musings rather than an overall declaration.
No, it doesn't. It's from a guide, not a novel. There's a reason why I didn't post Vader's musings about Sidious' supremacy from Death Star - because those were musings.
Yes, it reveals what Vader imagined, but that doesn't mean it's from his perspective. An omniscient author would know what Vader imagined as well.
The greatest sith master quote I remember but am also not sure how that all encompassing or even includes Valkorion who, while born a sith, isn't one by the time he takes up his new name.
It's not a quote about the "greatest Sith master". It's a quote about the "greatest master of evil to ever use Sith power", which fits the bill entirely. Vitiate/Valkorion is a master of evil, and even after he changes name, he uses Sith powers.
The DE quote appears to be Luke's musings and is incredibly outdated, same with the NEC.
As with the Vader one, it's not his musings, but the omniscient author telling us what they realized. Which isn't unheard of in sources whatsoever.
So like I said, most of these can easily be debated. If you want to go with feats, DE Sidious is probably the closest in terms of having overall supremacy but these quotes mose definitely do not provide end all be all supremacy for Palpatine.
That's the equivalent of saying that "the Earth's shape can be debated". You can choose to debate anything you want, even the facts.
I've yet to see a satisfactory "debunking" of the quotes as you've claimed. Moreover, even if each of the quotes had individual flaws or holes in them, the fact that they come from all sorts of sources, authors etc. for decades makes the case for itself. Palpatine is just universally supported as the most powerful Sith, and obviously that's the case for a erason.
Arcann claimed a lot of things. Valkorion IS Vitiate in full power. He regained his full strength after Ziost and disappeared into Wild Space, shedding his Vitiate name. "Valkorion" appears to be very different from Vitiate in his understanding of the force. He's also a spirit form so that makes things considerably different when putting him in a versus battle.
Vitiate changing name doesn't make him more powerful. If Ziost was just there to restore him to full strength, then he's probably just as strong as his older counterpart, not necessarily stronger.
As for his spirit form, thankfully Sidious knows how to manipulate spirits and essences then, eh?
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Where is this stated and for what kind of sources exactly? Because most of the quotes you provided are either completely outdated or indicate a character's own opinion.
The statute of limitations theory doesn't work because then you're essentially saying that sequels exist in their own continuity, since their existence as a newer source automatically invalidates all older sources, including the source that they were made as a sequel for? The fact that it's new means that it's an addition, not an overwrite, unless I'm shown a source that proves that.
Incomplete? No idea what you're talking about. And even if it didn't include characters after the fact, it'd include characters before the fact, including Vitiate. You have nowhere to run, lol.
They work fine. They obviously refer to all of history and have far more credence than Valkorion's case, which is built entirely on speculation and arbitrary judgment.
No, it doesn't. It's from a guide, not a novel. There's a reason why I didn't post Vader's musings about Sidious' supremacy from Death Star - because those were musings.Yes, it reveals what Vader imagined, but that doesn't mean it's from his perspective. An omniscient author would know what Vader imagined as well.
It's not a quote about the "greatest Sith master". It's a quote about the "greatest master of evil to ever use Sith power", which fits the bill entirely. Vitiate/Valkorion is a master of evil, and even after he changes name, he uses Sith powers.
I've yet to see a satisfactory "debunking" of the quotes as you've claimed. Moreover, even if each of the quotes had individual flaws or holes in them, the fact that they come from all sorts of sources, authors etc. for decades makes the case for itself. Palpatine is just universally supported as the most powerful Sith, and obviously that's the case for a erason.
Vitiate changing name doesn't make him more powerful. If Ziost was just there to restore him to full strength, then he's probably just as strong as his older counterpart, not necessarily stronger.As for his spirit form, thankfully Sidious knows how to manipulate spirits and essences then, eh?
As for his spirit form, i'm sure Sidious probably knows how to manipulate spirits or essences, yet we haven't seen him do that, much less to someone as powerful as Valkorion.
Everything is looked at on a case-by-case basis. Among the factors we consider: In how many sources does this particular fact appear? Which source has the largest audience? Which explanation is the coolest? Have we been told by George Lucas to avoid this topic? If, after weighing all those variables, the answer isn't yet clear, the issue is presented to an internal group that makes the final determination as to which source is "correct."'
Yea, that kinda proves my point don't you think? I'm very familiar with what Chee said because that's been passed around on this forum more often than hookers on the street. But that helps my argument more than it helps yours. He's essentially saying there's no objective measure, doesn't indicate which sources are OOU, what sources are all encompassing (meaning all future characters), etc. So you've basically provided a pretty good case for Palpatine as far as quotes go. Not great but pretty good.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Of course I do, because Valkorion was created in 2016.
And you've still failed to prove that he's more powerful than Vitiate.
At minimum, Vitiate's included in this, making RotS Sidious > him, and thus DE Sidious would eclipse whatever growth Valkorion would have, not that he's proven to have any to begin with.
And Valkorion existed in 2015. That's when the expansion came along.
You still haven't shown how these quotes are considered OOU and all encompassing.
Because they're from out-of-universe sources and refer to "all of history"?
You're wasting my time, lol.
Right, and omniscient author also personally believed Exar Kun was on the same level as Palpatine. There's a reason we didn't include that.
Uh-huh, where's that?
What sith powers does Valkorion use? And that's assuming that this quote incldues Valkorion.
Lightning, Essence Transfer, Drain, etc.
But that's not the point, lol. This isn't about his individual powers, it's the nature of his powers. Vitiate's spent his entire life as a Sith Lord. A change of name and allegiance doesn't change the fact that his powers were derived from the Sith.
Why wouldn't include Valkorion? It refers to "ever". Show me Valkorion's exemption from the quote, rather. The ones I've picked all refer to all of history. There's no reason for Vitiate's exemption unless you can provide one.
That maybe so but most of them have been debunked over the years because we don't take quotes at face value, ever. That's why hyperbole exists. I've yet to see anyone post a canon policy for future content, OOU sources, what constitutes as OOU, etc.
One man's debunking is another man's denial. I've yet to see any satisfactory repeal of any of these quotes, just people railing on about Vitiate's status as a new character. The quotes work fine.
Valkorion was a more powerful version of Vitiate, who apparently didn't need prep time to run another ritual, who also possessed a vastly different understanding of the force from Vitiate. It's the difference between ROTJ Sidious and DE Sidious.
Based on what is Valkorion better than Vitiate?
As for his spirit form, i'm sure Sidious probably knows how to manipulate spirits or essences, yet we haven't seen him do that, much less to someone as powerful as Valkorion.
We haven't seen Valkorion use telekinesis, Lightning, or any of his powers on someone as powerful as Sidious, too. I guess that means they're all moot, huh?
If Sidious is more powerful than Valkorion, I see no reason as to why this wouldn't work.
Yea, that kinda proves my point don't you think? I'm very familiar with what Chee said because that's been passed around on this forum more often than hookers on the street. But that helps my argument more than it helps yours.
Except the answer is clear. It's a dozen plus quotes in Sidious' favor to nil in favor of Valkorion. Your only argument is that Valkorion is new, but unless we assume that everything that's new automatically invalidates older sources, which would mean that all prequels are now invalidated, then yeah, that's just desperate denial.
Originally posted by MS Warehouse
Sunrazer/Tempest I'll tell you what. If you can email any of these star wars jackoffs and have them confirm to you that Sidious>Vitiate/Valkorion, even if it is their [b]opinion, I will NEVER argue against Sidious again? Now go. [/B]
I'm not one to email others, but I should have time to do this in the coming days.