DD Vos vs Maul

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yeah I was talking about the RotS novel.

And I'm aware, but it had Dooku entrapped nonetheless, I don't see Maul being encircled by Vos as Dooku was, he is far less a static duelist and instead extremely acrobatic and kinetic a fighter himself. Neither is Maul a technical duelist in the same way Dooku is, he is not a fencer who attempts to dismantle his opponents by exploiting flaws in their technique, but simply eviscerates them with the sheer deadliness (and indeed unpredictability) of his own offense. Which simply leaves Vos being an inferior fighter to one the most skilled and highly trained Sith in history.

And no it doesn't, but the point is that he isn't better than Dooku, and I see no reason to believe he's more powerful than Maul either. A comparison between Maul and Dooku Force wise is a matter of splitting hairs, and Vos has no feats that suggest superiority. So he's losing Force-only for starters.

The RotS novel is canon where it doesn't contradict the movies. I don't see how Dooku having innate knowledge of Ataru contradicts the movie.

Given Vos beat Dooku and Maul should inferably not be capable of the same I would not place Maul even as a peer of Vos's let alone a superior.

The point is he is better. Makashi isn't noted for being weak against unpredictable attacks meaning your speculation remains just that. I'd say ragdolling Ventress puts him about par with Maul. Dooku is greater then Maul by a substantial margin imo. Vos beating Dooku suggests superiority considering he couldn't even best Grievous when amped by a DS nexus.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The RotS novel is canon where it doesn't contradict the movies. I don't see how Dooku having innate knowledge of Ataru contradicts the movie.

But whatever, I'm sure Dooku having consumate knowledge of the seven styles' strengths and weaknesses is still a thing, but it appears to be Canon Vos' rejection of style that gave him the edge.

Given Vos beat Dooku and Maul should inferably not be capable of the same I would not place Maul even as a peer of Vos's let alone a superior.

The point is he is better.

Makashi isn't noted for being weak against unpredictable attacks meaning your speculation remains just that.

I'd say ragdolling Ventress puts him about par with Maul.

Vos beating Dooku suggests superiority considering he couldn't even best Grievous when amped by a DS nexus.

There is also the added contexts that while Vos quickly gained an edge over Dooku and subsequently had him beaten. Anakin tried and failed to overcome the Count in the same novel. Go figure. 🙂

Originally posted by Beniboybling
There is also the added contexts that while Vos quickly gained an edge over Dooku and subsequently had him beaten. Anakin tried and failed to overcome the Count in the same novel. Go figure. 🙂

Thank you for poining out Vos's superiority to someone who even had a form advantage in his favor. Lmao.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Friend, its not Canon. Disney made it very clear what was and what wasn't. And even if it was, that particular clause would render half the novel null and void, it's plagued with inconsistencies.

But whatever, I'm sure Dooku having consumate knowledge of the seven styles' strengths and weaknesses is still a thing, but it appears to be Canon Vos' rejection of style that gave him the edge.Inferably? Maul's ability to defeat Dooku is well within the realm of possibility. That's your opinion, I don't share it. The ability to defeat X in combat does not necessarily make you holistically superior. And in general this kind of ABC logic is inherently flawed.It's a perfectly logical conclusion to make friend, and I've already expounded on my reasoning. If you lack a valid counter response besides from "it's nowhere stated" then it is you who are assuming that Makashi wouldn't be vulnerable to this kind of offense. The fact that the text draws an explicit comparison between Dooku's technique and Vos' unpredictability only lending itself to my point.Considering Maul has done the same to a more powerful Kenobi, who has himself ragdolled Ventress, it doesn't even come close.There is no evidence to suggest Maul couldn't best Grievous lol, ultimately they only crossed sabers briefly before Grievous was distracted and subsequently BFRed. I see no evidence that suggests Vos would have done better.

1. It wouldn't render Dooku's knowledge of all of Ataru's weaknesses moot because that doesn't contradict the movie. Since that's the only part of the novel that's currently relevant I don't see the point of your comment.

Canon Vos employs a ferocious, unpredictable, agility based offensive. Sounds like Ataru to me.

2. Given their relative performance against lightsaber combatants like Sidious and Yoda I'd beg to differ. Being dominated in a fight Sidious was only playing around in vs holding off an offensive from a serious Yoda isn't comparable imo.

3. If A beats C and C has superior feats to B then A beats C. Got it?

4. Makashi is noted to be a dueling form that specializes in one on one combat. You think it would've noted its weakness to unpredictability like it does with its weakness to kinetic force if it was relevant or in fact even existed at all.

5. Kenobi has never ragdolled Ventress in canon ( and AFAIK not in Legends either. He has however been dominated by Ventress multiple times in Legends and along with Anakin was dominated by an enraged Ventress in TCW.

6. Right. Vos beating Dooku an inarguable superior to Grievous means Vos wouldn't have done better in a situation where he's amped. Lmao.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. It wouldn't render Dooku's knowledge of all of Ataru's weaknesses moot because that doesn't contradict the movie. Since that's the only part of the novel that's currently relevant I don't see the point of your comment.

Canon Vos employs a ferocious, unpredictable, agility based offensive. Sounds like Ataru to me.

2. Given their relative performance against lightsaber combatants like Sidious and Yoda I'd beg to differ. Being dominated in a fight Sidious was only playing around in vs holding off an offensive from a serious Yoda isn't comparable imo.

3. If A beats C and C has superior feats to B then A beats C. Got it?

4. Makashi is noted to be a dueling form that specializes in one on one combat. You think it would've noted its weakness to unpredictability like it does with its weakness to kinetic force if it was relevant or in fact even existed at all.

5. Kenobi has never ragdolled Ventress in canon ( and AFAIK not in Legends either. He has however been dominated by Ventress multiple times in Legends and along with Anakin was dominated by an enraged Ventress in TCW.

"You know," he said, slipping his blade alongside hers then twisting it to throw her off balance, "I rather think fighting you was easier when I was trying to kill you."

Vos leaned against the wall, panting, his torso slick with blood and sweat. From his position he could see down the next corridor. "We've got company!" he shouted, and sure enough, Kenobi could hear the clatter of metallic feet.

Ventress abruptly dodged Kenobi's blow and returned her focus to Vos. By this point Obi-Wan was not just alarmed by Ventress's single-minded and inexplicable distrust of Vos, but growing profoundly exasperated.

"Ventress, by all that is good in this galaxy, can we please settle this later?" He reached out in the Force, lifted her up, and plunked her a few meters farther down the corridor the way they had come. "Go!" he shouted.

6. Right. Vos beating Dooku an inarguable superior to Grievous means Vos wouldn't have done better in a situation where he's amped. Lmao.

I suggest you just stick to that.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Thank you for poining out Vos's superiority to someone who even had a form advantage in his favor. Lmao.

Vos is not superior to Anakin, Christ.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
facepalm

Vos is not superior to Anakin, Christ.

As a lightsaber combat as of DD he certainly is.

Despite Anakin being considered the greatest warrior in the Order, and being, ya know, the Chosen One. mmm

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The point is the novel is Legends lol, so its worthless as a source. We can still assume Dooku has extensive knowledge of lightsaber techniques simply because of his mastery over dueling, but we know that Vos rejects conventional models for randomness.More ABC logic tbh, unlike Maul, Dooku deflected Yoda's assault while Maul met Sidious head on, if Dooku had done the same I don't imagine he would have lasted long.
Maul > Kenobi > Anakin > Dooku then, gotcha.If you can name a (Canon) source that outlines Makashi's weaknesses (naturally one that isn't context dependent) then you might have a point, but I reckon you'll struggle, as there are none. So for the meantime you continue to assume that Vos defeated Dooku because he was the better duelist.He Force grips her in Dark Disciple:Whereas Ventress only ever overpowered Kenobi (or Anakin), under extreme circumstances. On the other hand with out such circumstances Anakin destroyed her. Yet failed to overpower Kenobi in RotS, despite growing "vastly" in strength. Yeah, Kenobi is undoubtedly better.What? Aside from the sheer lack of details on the duration of either fight, or the extent of the amp (if any) involved, making this baseless speculation, this point is render rather moot by the main thrust of Vos not being better than Dooku. So maybe you should just stick to that.

1. The novel is canon where it doesn't contradict the movies. Just because Vos is unpredictable doesn't mean he rejects conventional lightsaber combat especially when Ataru's MO is to be an offensive whirlwind.

2. Except Sidious was noted to not be taking the fight seriously and playing with Maul AND his brother. Dooku held off a serious assault by Yoda. Not to mention Yoda being a superior duelist to Sidious anyways.

3. Except there's no form advantages, personal knowledge or amps involved in the Vos/Dooku/Maul comparison.

4. The RotS novelization is a canon source that does exactly that.

5. LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You call that ragdolling? Consider it a kindness that I won't bother addressing this point.

An emotionally hindered Anakin who had just choked out his wife and was at a mental breaking point. Anakin in less emotional distress has failed to even replicate the power of a grenade after his "substantial power growth."

6. Grievous and Maul engaging twice and neither gaining an advantage over the other demonstrates clears peerage. Grievous > Maul ( as a lightsaber combatant ). Dooku > Grievous. Vos > Dooku. Vos >>> Maul.

Dathomir is noted to be a world strong with the darkside in multiple sources.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Despite Anakin being considered the greatest warrior in the Order, and being, ya know, the Chosen One. mmm

As of Dark Disciple? Quote?

And remind me again how his status as an overall combatant equates to his ability as a lightsaber combatant?

You know you're losing an argument when you throw in 'The Chosen One' card.

Vos already fought against grevious in DD, and he beat him in like less than 60 seconds,right?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Only enraged Savage was capable of such and in that state he did the same to Dooku.

Only enraged Savage did that. You don't know only enraged Savage is capable of that.

Regular Savage also ragdolled a council member - Adi Gallia. He's also got better TK feats than Vos, throwing a huge Jedi craft off a cliff.

So raged or not, Savage clearly has a mean Force wave, and it will take a lot of evidence to put Vos above him in that category.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. The novel is canon where it doesn't contradict the movies. Just because Vos is unpredictable doesn't mean he rejects conventional lightsaber combat especially when Ataru's MO is to be an offensive whirlwind.

*though the word they use is "align" not contradict, which is quite different.

2. Except Sidious was noted to not be taking the fight seriously and playing with Maul AND his brother. Dooku held off a serious assault by Yoda. Not to mention Yoda being a superior duelist to Sidious anyways.

In fact more than that Maul was initially driving Sidious back, and managed to connect a blow, it's only when Sidious forces a direct contest of strength that Maul's (presumably flagging) reserves give way, as Sidious taps in fully to his own. Again what proof is there that Dooku would have done much better, or better at all, under those circumstances?

3. Except there's no form advantages, personal knowledge or amps involved in the Vos/Dooku/Maul comparison.

4. The RotS novelization is a canon source that does exactly that.

5. LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

You call that ragdolling? Consider it a kindness that I won't bother addressing this point.

An emotionally hindered Anakin who had just choked out his wife and was at a mental breaking point. Anakin in less emotional distress has failed to even replicate the power of a grenade after his "substantial power growth."

Regardless being in an emotionally hindered state didn't stop him from crushing Cin Drallig or causing Kenobi's bone's to fracture with "impossible strength", so I'm not inclined to believe that makes up for a vast increment in power at all.

Certainly we are no closer to proving Ventress is in Kenobi's league. mmm

6. Grievous and Maul engaging twice and neither gaining an advantage over the other demonstrates clears peerage. Grievous > Maul ( as a lightsaber combatant ). Dooku > Grievous. Vos > Dooku. Vos >>> Maul.

Dathomir is noted to be a world strong with the darkside in multiple sources.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
As of Dark Disciple? Quote?

And remind me again how his status as an overall combatant equates to his ability as a lightsaber combatant?

Ezra: I've watched these recordings to help me with my own saber training.

Ahsoka: You should have seen him in person. Anakin Skywalker, he was my master.

Ezra: Kanan said he was the greatest warrior the Jedi had in the Clone Wars.

Ahsoka: He was powerful, rarely lost a battle.

More to the point though Vos has never achieved such high praise or anything remotely close to it despite being, what the second, third best duelist in the Order by your estimation? Colour me unconvinced.

Originally posted by chingchangwalla
You know you're losing an argument when you throw in 'The Chosen One' card.

Originally posted by Total Warrior
Vos already fought against grevious in DD, and he beat him in like less than 60 seconds,right?

Didn't Maul tackle and immobilize Grievous in an instant in Son of Dathomir? Why is this even a discussion?

Dooku vs Maul is a toss-up, the winner would come down to who had the situational advantage.

As for Vos, he has a puncher's chance against Maul but the factors which allowed him to beat Dooku - speed, ferocity, unpredictability - are nullified here, since Maul is even faster, more ferocious and unpredictable.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Only enraged Savage did that. You don't know only enraged Savage is capable of that.

Regular Savage also ragdolled a council member - Adi Gallia. He's also got better TK feats than Vos, throwing a huge Jedi craft off a cliff.

So raged or not, Savage clearly has a mean Force wave, and it will take a lot of evidence to put Vos above him in that category.

Scan for Savage rag dolling Adi?

I'd say ragdolling Ventress is about as good as any of the object manipulation feats Savage has.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Didn't Maul tackle and immobilize Grievous in an instant in Son of Dathomir? Why is this even a discussion?

Dooku vs Maul is a toss-up, the winner would come down to who had the situational advantage.

As for Vos, he has a puncher's chance against Maul but the factors which allowed him to beat Dooku - speed, ferocity, unpredictability - are nullified here, since Maul is even faster, more ferocious and unpredictable.

And what evidence do you have for this stance?

I'll get to you after I deal with the fodder Beni.