KotOR Revan vs The Outlander

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
He wasn't gathering power. That was a standard attack animation (also seen in the Dread War expansion).

And he does that for the Imperial side, meaning he does it to Darth Nox or the Emperor's Wrath. So no, not amped.

Well, he was amped for the Republic one, but fair enough.

It's established by Revan being capable of "discarding" protagonists in the Temple of Sacrifice operation (referenced by the Devs in a live interview as well), the protagonist not even trying to dispute the point when Revan declares that they are no match for him alone, and the fact an entire strike team was required to beat him - and said strike team wasn't even capable of doing that without circumstances.

The fact that they're no match for Revan is obvious. Where's the Dev quote for him discarding them?

"Revan travels to a very iconic Yavin IV to go to battle and release the actual Emperor, one we thought who was defeated not long ago. The player is pulled into this struggle of two of the most powerful Force users, like ever, in the history of the Old Republic, if not beyond - Revan and the Emperor."

Comments like those make clear that Revan's closer to Vitiate than the Hero of Tython.

Interesting, but that depends of course on how big the disparity is between the Hero of Tython and Vitiate.

Anyway, thoughts on this fight?

Well, he was amped for the Republic one, but fair enough.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The fact that they're no match for Revan is obvious. Where's the Dev quote for him discarding them?

While non-canon, the intent is clear that these protagonists are fighting a being on a whole different level.

Anyway, thoughts on this fight?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

He only did the attack for the Imperial version, unless you're referring to when the fight actually begins?

It goes like: "There's even a mechanic where Revan can throw them into the Machine Core!" or something along those lines.

While non-canon, the intent is clear that these protagonists are fighting a being on a whole different level.

I think it can go either way. [/B]

1. I'm referring to the one where he claims "I am Revan!" and he hurls them back.

2. How does that have anything to do with discarding?

3. Really? Interesting. Where do you have these combatants, again?

1. Yeah, that's only in the Imperial version.

2. He's "discarding" them with telekinesis. There's also a mechanic power called "discard," in which the ability is Revan hurling them away like a ragdoll.

3. Between Darth Vader and Dooku.

1. Ah.

2. Still game mechanics. Malgus has a power where he Chokes 3/4 of the team without even gesturing 😬

3. KotOR Revan above Dooku? Ah, but you have Malak on par with Dooku, don't you?

The outlander also gets choked by an exarch knight in the star fortress operation over a hologram. 😬

No clue why you say "still game mechanics" as if that means anything to me, lmfao. Yeah, Malgus can choke three of the protagonists while he fights the fourth. 👆

If the HoT was even comparable to Revan, he wouldn't been on the losing end against him with he's also amped by Battle Meditation and fighting alongside Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and a host of other individuals.

---

Yeah.

Outlander, obviously.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
No clue why you say "still game mechanics" as if that means anything to me, lmfao. Yeah, Malgus can choke three of the protagonists while he fights the fourth. 👆

Which is dumb for obvious reasons.

If the HoT was even comparable to Revan, he wouldn't been on the losing end against him with he's also amped by Battle Meditation and fighting alongside Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, and a host of other individuals.

They won 😬

Yeah.

Does that mean you have Traya over Maul? 🙂

Elaborate.

Yeah, because of Spirit Revan. 👆

Yeah.

1. Because Malgus can suddenly only Choke two of you when you come in a party of three? Because Malgus can effortlessly Choke, in one instance, HoT, Barsen'thor and the Smuggler, but he can't finish them off and can't even chase down the Trooper (or just, you know, Choke him as well)? Because almost every final boss and their grandmother has some sort of player-dominating effect in TOR?

2. In fairness, Yavin IV was "on another level" to the "immeasurably powerful" DS nexus of Oricon. So Revan had a colossal advantage over HoT there and I don't think a similarly hindered Satele's BM is going to cancel that out. Marr is worth mentioning. Don't think Lana is, though.

3. So where do Sion and Bandon fit?

You cite non-canonical examples. The fight was intended for four individuals, and thus the mechanics and story were written based off of four individuals (as stated in the beginning of every OPS).

2. In fairness, Yavin IV was "on another level" to the "immeasurably powerful" DS nexus of Oricon.

So Revan had a colossal advantage over HoT there and I don't think a similarly hindered Satele's BM is going to cancel that out.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You cite non-canonical examples. The fight was intended for four individuals, and thus the mechanics and story were written based off of four individuals (as stated in the beginning of every OPS).

You failed to address my canonical examples as well 😬

Besides, game mechanics beget game mechanic-based examples.

Malgus can Choke HoT, Barsen'thor and the Smuggler at one point without even gesturing, whilst mentally afflicting the Trooper, yet he can't win the fight then and there? Explain it to me.

Also explain the fact that nearly every final boss "dominates" the players for a time but still ends up losing. It's obviously flashy game mechanics, not legitimate displays of domination, lmfao.

That was stated by Satele Shan, who wasn't present on Oricon during the "immeasurably powerful" stage. The nexus was diminished by the protagonists actions and, with the Dread Masters death, the insidious presence nearly completely went away. Thus, it's not surprisingly to recognize that when Satele Shan did visit Oricon, which was likely after the death of the Dread Masters, that she thought of it as more powerful than Yavin IV. Oricon would hardly be considered a nexus with all its focal points of power destroyed.

Based on what is the "immeasurably powerful" bit a "stage"? The codex entry would imply that it's entirely possible that it was that before the Dread Masters even arrived.

There's no indication of a colossal advantage, especially when Revan isn't in his best shape either (just got defeated on the Temple of Sacrifice, in which at one point a kilometer's worth of energy backlashed within him). It was stated, and I quote, that the protagonist's "combat effectiveness" was "greatly" increased by the Battle Meditation. Thus, it's clear that he was actually amped, not hindered. And if Satele is anything like Bastila, Revan would also be hindered by the Battle Meditation.

He didn't seem particularly hurt at the beginning of the fight. And even Atris could heal herself from severe wounds in short amounts of time 😬

Anyways, we agree on Revan being significantly above the HoT as of SoR, but discarding him on neutral ground? Still unsure of that.

Originally posted by SunRazer
He didn't seem particularly hurt at the beginning of the fight. And even Atris could heal herself from severe wounds in short amounts of time 😬

As could Revan.

Originally posted by SunRazer
You failed to address my canonical examples as well 😬

Malgus can Choke HoT, Barsen'thor and the Smuggler at one point without even gesturing, whilst mentally afflicting the Trooper, yet he can't win the fight then and there? Explain it to me.

Also explain the fact that nearly every final boss "dominates" the players for a time but still ends up losing. It's obviously flashy game mechanics, not legitimate displays of domination, lmfao.

Sometimes critical thinking is essential. 👆

Based on what is the "immeasurably powerful" bit a "stage"? The codex entry would imply that it's entirely possible that it was that before the Dread Masters even arrived.

He didn't seem particularly hurt at the beginning of the fight. And even Atris could heal herself from severe wounds in short amounts of time 😬

Anyways, we agree on Revan being significantly above the HoT as of SoR, but discarding him on neutral ground? Still unsure of that.

Originally posted by Nephthys
As could Revan.

That's the point...

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Obviously the game mechanic would be viewed as Malgus choking one Force sensitive and the two non-Force sensitives.

Sometimes critical thinking is essential. 👆

Lol he does his Choke thing several times, and it's always a different character that's free from the Choke. So at one point, he Chokes the two Force users.

If there was critical thinking, we wouldn't be discussing this 😬

Based on the fact it's specifically stated it's that powerful due to the Dread Masters' alchemy and their dominating presence. It's literally also stated that the nexus declines exponentially as you destroy their abominations and them. And no, it's stated that the world became that powerful due to them. I assume you didn't play the expansion.

The fact that the world became more powerful from the Dread Masters' ooga-booga and the fact that the nexus thus declines upon the eradication of the DM's (naturally) doesn't preclude the fact that it was immeasurably powerful from the onset. It's the codex entry that proclaims it to be immeasurably powerful, and the same source raises the possibility that the nexus drew the DM's to the planet or something like that.

Revan's Force essence was also stripped away from him when the Machine Core became unstable. Force-based energies wouldn't be healed so easily.

Alright.

If he can easily ragdoll Marr and Shan, he can discard the HoT. 😬

Isn't it widely argued that the Hot is stronger than them? Especially some who go as far as to claim that the HoT was more powerful than Shan by the end of Act I alone. So dominating weaker beings doesn't mean dominating the HoT.

Lol he does his Choke thing several times, and it's always a different character that's free from the Choke. So at one point, he Chokes the two Force users.

It's not a stretch to assume Darth Malgus can briefly choke even both Force-sensitive protagonists while the remaining non-Force sensitive unleashes his defensive shields and goes in a retreat.

I liken this to how Savage choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time in a fit of rage.

The fact that the world became more powerful from the Dread Masters' ooga-booga and the fact that the nexus thus declines upon the eradication of the DM's (naturally) doesn't preclude the fact that it was immeasurably powerful from the onset. It's the codex entry that proclaims it to be immeasurably powerful, and the same source raises the possibility that the nexus drew the DM's to the planet or something like that.

Isn't it widely argued that the Hot is stronger than them? Especially some who go as far as to claim that the HoT was more powerful than Shan by the end of Act I alone. So dominating weaker beings doesn't mean dominating the HoT.

You don't go from that, in which even individually they can compete with the HoT, to Revan not even being capable of ragdolling the HoT.

The disparity just isn't that big.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

Which isn't a stretch, since we know the Imperial Agent can briefly delay Darth Jadus.

It's not a stretch to assume Darth Malgus can briefly choke even both Force-sensitive protagonists while the remaining non-Force sensitive unleashes his defensive shields and goes in a retreat.

I liken this to how Savage choked Dooku and Ventress at the same time in a fit of rage.

Fit of rage? There was no fit of rage. Malgus mentally afflicted the fourth member of the team, then left the other three suspended helplessly in the air without even gesturing. It wasn't "brief", either.

No, it wasn't immeasurably powerful from the oneset. You have no clue what you're talking about. The codex refers to Oricon as it is when you travel to it, and when you travel to it, its plagued with the Phobis devices, dark side abominations, and the Dread Masters.

The "immeasurably powerful" part could be a reference to the game, but the nexus could have well existed prior to the Dread Masters' arrival:

Perhaps this is because the legendary Phobis devices are housed on Oricon; perhaps the Phobis devices were built on the moon long ago because of the dark side’s preexistence there.

-- http://www.swtor-spy.com/codex/oricon/155573/

Either way, a nexus on another level to that would be pretty powerful.

Revan didn't just dominate them. He ragdolled them, put them in stasis, and basically let them slowly die.

You don't go from that, in which even individually they can compete with the HoT, to Revan not even being capable of ragdolling the HoT.

The disparity just isn't that big.

Isn't that game mechanics again?

Don't go from what? When have Satele or Marr competed with HoT, and that would probably be in sabers anyway.

*The "immeasurably powerful" part may have been a reference to the planet as you visit it in the game.

Fit of rage? There was no fit of rage. Malgus mentally afflicted the fourth member of the team, then left the other three suspended helplessly in the air without even gesturing. It wasn't "brief", either.

The "immeasurably powerful" part could be a reference to the game, but the nexus could have well existed prior to the Dread Masters' arrival:

Isn't that game mechanics again?

Don't go from what? When have Satele or Marr competed with HoT, and that would probably be in sabers anyway.

Shan's the blood of Revan, absorbing lightsabers, blasting open doors, forming powerful barriers, etc.

I mean, I'm actually shocked you don't think they're comparable. And no, don't respond to that point by point. I'm not interested in prolonging this head-aching debate.

EDIT: I don't recall a rebuttal to the Hero of Tython specifically being stated as being amped, BTW. That's the whole point of this debate.