Mace vs Vader sabers only

Originally posted by SunRazer
What single acolyte?

And indeed, Sidious would fry Maul like nothing if he unleashed his full power.

Vader was more powerful than Maul at that point as well. The Prophets were obviously powerful, but that didn't mean they were capable combatants.

Additionally, it's possible that if they resurrected him, they would have a measure of control over him as well.

There's nothing non-canon about it.

The retcon I was referring to was the fact that Maul came back after TPM. It doesn't really directly impact the comic too much.

No. It still exists in the continuity.

I think we can settle most of our points by agreeing to disagreeing. We've made no progress over several pages and the discussion just seems to be increasing tensions.

The single acolyte that waves his hand at Maul before ordering him to stand down.

*Shrug* Maybe he would maybe he wouldn't. Haven't decided on that myself. I do know that he shouldn't have been able to do so to all 3 at once if the acolytes in question were substantially more powerful.

That's not what the comic indicates.

Unfounded speculation.

But I'm saying we don't know how skilled/powerful TPM Maul was pre TCW other then he was a superior to Qui Gon and an inferior to Sidious as a combatant.

Fair enough.

Probably true.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
The single acolyte that waves his hand at Maul before ordering him to stand down.

*Shrug* Maybe he would maybe he wouldn't. Haven't decided on that myself. I do know that he shouldn't have been able to do so to all 3 at once if the acolytes in question were substantially more powerful.

I didn't say anything about substantially greater power.

That's not what the comic indicates.

The comic indicates nothing about who's more powerful in the Force. Maul had the edge in the duel, though.

Unfounded speculation.

Just like Maul growing in skill or power?

But I'm saying we don't know how skilled/powerful TPM Maul was pre TCW other then he was a superior to Qui Gon and an inferior to Sidious as a combatant.

Well, that's the arbitrary part. It's up to us to rank it. That is what we do here, after all.

Probably true.

I'm glad you think so as well.

Originally posted by SunRazer
I didn't say anything about substantially greater power.

The comic indicates nothing about who's more powerful in the Force. Maul had the edge in the duel, though.

Just like Maul growing in skill or power?

Well, that's the arbitrary part. It's up to us to rank it. That is what we do here, after all.

I'm glad you think so as well.

No, but I did. If they're able to control Maul's actions that makes them substantially more powerful.

I'm not the one who said it did.

"Vader was more powerful than Maul at that point as well." - ShootingNova.

Something I never claimed though you apparently think I did. Would you like me to quote me saying anything about that honestly.

I agree with you though that nothing indicates who's more powerful in the Force.

Without TCW I can't argue against anybody's ranking other then what I view to be most likely. Going off of what we know of Qui Gon as an implied peer of Windu's and a lightsaber combatant superior to a battle master and an INJURED Maul besting Qui Gon exceedingly quickly and handling both Qui Gon and Obi Wan simultaneously for a long period I see why the writer of that comic made the fight so close. Believe it or not TCW lowers my placement of Maul as a lightsaber combatant ( and subsequently Qui Gon as well ) considerably.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
No, but I did. If they're able to control Maul's actions that makes them substantially more powerful.

Noticeably. Not necessarily substantially.

Besides, Sidious is infinitely more powerful than Maul, as shown in SoD #4 where Maul was an afterthought in the Sidious vs Talzin fight. It's not hard to imagine Sidious incinerating people more powerful than Maul. There's a huge gap between them.

I'm not the one who said it did. YOU were.

"Vader was more powerful than Maul at that point as well." - ShootingNova.

I agree with you though that nothing indicates who's more powerful in the Force.

Yes, the comic says nothing about it. However, I rank Vader over Maul in terms of power through feats, accolades, scaling, logic, etc.

Without TCW I can't argue against anybody's ranking other then what I view to be most likely. Going off of what we know of Qui Gon as an implied peer of Windu's and a lightsaber combatant superior to a battle master and an INJURED Maul besting Qui Gon exceedingly quickly and handling both Qui Gon and Obi Wan simultaneously for a long period I see why the writer of that comic made the fight so close. Believe it or not TCW lowers my placement of Maul as a lightsaber combatant ( and subsequently Qui Gon as well ) considerably.

I've searched very hard for Qui-Gon's claim to peerage with Mace Windu, but that doesn't exist, unfortunately. Unless you've found the quote yourself?

Originally posted by SunRazer
Noticeably. Not necessarily substantially.

Besides, Sidious is infinitely more powerful than Maul, as shown in SoD #4 where Maul was an afterthought in the Sidious vs Talzin fight. It's not hard to imagine Sidious incinerating people more powerful than Maul. There's a huge gap between them.

Yes, the comic says nothing about it. However, I rank Vader over Maul in terms of power through feats, accolades, scaling, logic, etc.

I've searched very hard for Qui-Gon's claim to peerdom of Mace Windu, but that doesn't exist, unfortunately. Unless you've found the quote yourself?

Substantially imo. I think you hold the stance that Sidious is more then substantially more powerful then Galen yet his telepathic assault only managed to freeze Galen with indecision not outright control his actions.

You can't apply material which de-canonizes this comic as evidence for a gap in power between Sidious and Maul.

And that's fine.

I said implied, didn't I?

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Substantially imo. I think you hold the stance that Sidious is more then substantially more powerful then Galen yet his telepathic assault only managed to freeze Galen with indecision not outright control his actions.

You can't apply material which de-canonizes this comic as evidence for a gap in power between Sidious and Maul.

And that's fine.

I said implied, didn't I?

1. You don't have to bring Galen into this 😬

And heck, Sidious couldn't even overcome RotJ Luke with telepathic hypnosis, but it's obvious that he was far more powerful than him.

TP requires a huge, huge disparity to mind control someone.

2. It doesn't de-canonize the comic? We don't know when Maul died - it could've been before ANH. For all we know, even Rebels Maul (another continuity) could die before ANH.

3. Yes, and I don't know of any source that implies that.

Mace's peerage is Dooku and Yoda, as stated by multiple sources. Nowhere is Qui-Gon mentioned among them. Qui-Gon's an elite duelist, definitely among the upper echelons of Jedi, but not in the highest pantheon of swordsmen.

1. That's exactly what I'm saying. If these acolytes were controlling the actions of a resurrected Maul they should have been closer to Sidious then Maul given the gap required to do what they were doing.

2. It does though or it at least gets rid of your idea that Maul was resurrected in the traditional sense. Which it's heavily implied he wasn't in the comic anyways.

3. You haven't seen the quote that implies it? Well one moment while I'll see if I can find it for you.

1. And maybe they were closer. Just not close enough to not be fodderized by the Emperor.

I didn't say the Prophets used TP to Mind Control Maul, by the way. It's entirely possible that they formed a bond of some sort or had inherent control from their resurrection.

2. It's stated by Insider #83, as Zenwolf posted.

The retcon doesn't invalidate the actual showing, anyway.

3. If this is the Anoon Bondara quote, then no, it doesn't imply that they're peers.

1. I have my doubts that he could could even do that to Maul. If the acolytes are closer to Sidious then they are Maul Sidious shouldn't be capable of doing that to them. Or if he was then that should make Maul substantially less powerful then Vader to the point Vader should have been capable of dominating him through the Force.

2. I'm saying perhaps it's not referring to resurrection in the traditional sense.

It invalidates the ability to judge characters from before and after the retcon based off their performance against the same character.

3. It's not.

1. I don't share your doubts. Sidious is vastly beyond Maul-tier characters. Given that Nyriss could incinerate Meetra/Scourge and Revan could incinerate her, it's not hard to imagine Sidious doing the same to Maul or even beings more powerful than Maul.

2. It would've been prior to the retcon.

Zenwolf's interpretation of TCW as a separate continuity would do wonders here.

Not really. I was arguing that TPM Maul was winning against ANH Vader. Maul coming back in TCW doesn't really change that.

3. Really? Interesting. I'll need to add it as part of my Qui-Gon RT.

1. Given he couldn't to Vader as of RotJ I have my doubts.

2. We could adopt Zenwolf's view for the purposes of the debate.

But this whole Maul subject is relating back to Mace. You know if we took the view that they're separate continuities we can't use it to scale Mace and Vader based on their performances against Maul. I mean that's the whole point of why this was brought up, right?

3. Ching posted it earlier. He should be able to get it to me if he sees my request.

Ah it is the Boondara quote.

"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."

Obviously it doesn't outright put them on the same level but it implies they're peers.

1. Vader's far more durable than Maul, as seen in that comic alone where he survived the stabbing and walked on when Maul died.

Silver also raised an interesting point about how Anakin potentially entered Oneness then.

2. I'm discussing Legends here, so that means I can discount TCW but still keep the rest.

3. Alright. I'm eager to see it.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Ah it is the Boondara quote.

"Renowned for his skill with the lightsaber, Jedi Master Anoon Bondara is regarded by many of his peers and all of his apprentices as a role model whose combat prowess is unmatched in the Jedi Order. Bondara would disagree with this assesment. During his tenure at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant, he spars with superior lightsaber duelists such as Qui-Gon Jinn and Mace Windu. Although he humbles himself when compared to their skill, Bondara's prowess is nontheless considerable."

Obviously it doesn't outright put them on the same level but it implies they're peers.

Yeah, as I said, I've seen it.

And no, it doesn't imply legitimate peerage. They're only peers in the sense that they're both Jedi that have defeated Bondara, lol.

I would disagree if we're not taking into account TCW and canon performances.

What do you mean?

I mean if we went back to the year 2001 when we only had TPM to go off of for Maul and the quote to go off of for Jinn I would say that quote indicates Jinn and Mace were peers.

Granted going off showings we have today that's obviously not the case.

Jinn hasn't been covered enough. We've only really seen him beat Xanatos and that other phag, and lose to Maul as an old man. In his prime I'd like to think he and Mace were almost on the same level.

I wonder if the Anoon Bondara quote even refers to Qui-Gon as of TPM. It might refer to prime Qui-Gon?

I always assumed TPM Jinn was prime Jinn tbh.