Mace vs Vader sabers only

Originally posted by SunRazer
I can't even use the quote button, so this will be painful.

Sorry, but:

Is far stronger than your speculative case about Maul suddenly being better than he was. Either show me proof that he was better than usual, or concede. I'm not interested in a prolonged discussion on this.

They deflected more than one strike, so it wasn't just the preliminary positioning that allowed them to react.

Your quote just proves that they were fighting, ergo, reacting.

I've lost track of what we're discussing anyway. Since when is Vader near Sidious in speed? What's this supposed to prove?

Mace is equal to Dooku, who's shown to be able to hold his own against Yoda to an extent. Moreover, there are quotes saying that Yoda beat him in spars, but seeing as certain Jedi still believed that Mace and Yoda were equals, I'm assuming that Yoda didn't blitz him because I don't think any Jedi would maintain that they were equals after watching that 😬

Again, you mistake being matter-of-fact for being arrogant. There's nothing arrogant about this - I treat us all as equals by right.

You need to stop accusing people of baseless things every second sentence and start debating with a spine. There's people far more arrogant than me here and you're not calling them out for it. And even if I was arrogant, who cares? It's an internet forum, we're here to debate. If you don't like me, then don't debate with me.

Yes, I know, I don't have the quote, which is why I was appealing for someone else to get it.

It calls the Maul Vader faces a "doppleganger." And TCW already keeps what you're suggesting from being a possibility anyways. Try to keep up.

Except you just said I'm presenting a case I'm not in any way shape of form presenting. Lmao. I said the Maul doppleganger was likely a conjured illusion by the dark side adepts meaning it wouldn't be representative of the actual Maul's abilities.

Not all of it but it was a large part of it considering they weren't able to even raise their blades whilst their allies were being blitzed.

It's supposed to show you that Mace being put in Sidious and Yoda's tier as a lightsaber combatant doesn't mean jack diddly squat.

I'm saying that given Mace's performance he should be unable to last more then a few blows in a serious duel against Yoda meaning these spars can be inferably dismissed as valid showings. Not to mention an amped Dooku was quickly outmatched by Yoda meaning a Yoda willing to kill the Count should be capable of near blitzing him.

Because they don't pretend they aren't arrogant while you do. At least own up to it.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It calls the Maul Vader faces a "doppleganger." And TCW already keeps what you're suggesting from being a possibility anyways. Try to keep up.

Except you just said I'm presenting a case I'm not in any way shape of form presenting. Lmao. I said the Maul doppleganger was likely a conjured illusion by the dark side adepts meaning it wouldn't be representative of the actual Maul's abilities.

Are you serious? It outright mentions in the text that it was resurrection, not a conjured illusion:

"We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."

Not all of it but it was a large part of it considering they weren't able to even raise their blades whilst their allies were being blitzed.

I've told you that it's just bad choreography. It contradicts what happens right after, lol.

It's supposed to show you that Mace being put in Sidious and Yoda's tier as a lightsaber combatant doesn't mean jack diddly squat.

Your faulty evidence doesn't disprove that.

I'm saying that given Mace's performance he should be unable to last more then a few blows in a serious duel against Yoda meaning these spars can be inferably dismissed as valid showings. Not to mention an amped Dooku was quickly outmatched by Yoda meaning a Yoda willing to kill the Count should be capable of near blitzing him.

Dooku was quickly outmatched but not quickly beaten. And Yoda did want to destroy Dooku then, IIRC, because of the DS nexus.

Because they don't pretend they aren't arrogant while you do. At least own up to it.

I'm not seeing where this arrogance comes from. I have a history of humbleness that most of you lack, and I don't emphasize things like what people think of me as a debater. At the very least, I'm not making a conscious effort to be arrogant, unless I'm trolling with Zoltan or DC.

And given your penchant for undeserved emotional outbursts and accusations, forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Are you serious? It outright mentions in the text that it was resurrection, not a conjured illusion:

"We took it upon ourselves to [b]resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."

I've told you that it's just bad choreography. It contradicts what happens right after, lol.

Your faulty evidence doesn't disprove that.

Dooku was quickly outmatched but not quickly beaten. And Yoda did want to destroy Dooku then, IIRC, because of the DS nexus.

I'm not seeing where this arrogance comes from. I have a history of humbleness that most of you lack, and I don't emphasize things like what people think of me as a debater. At the very least, I'm not making a conscious effort to be arrogant, unless I'm trolling with Zoltan or DC.

And given your penchant for undeserved emotional outbursts and accusations, forgive me if I don't take your word for it. [/B]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtxMWSqzW-k

Post 3:00 mark you see one of the dark acolyte's wave their hand causing Maul to back off and then go on to talk about molding/creating individuals. Given this dialogue and the backing of TCW making this being an actual resurrection impossible that's pretty much all that really needs to be said on the subject.

They don't raise their blades until after Tiin and Kolar are cut down as well.

Except it does.

Fair enough though why it matters to you what affected Yoda's intent I can't begin to imagine.

Did I say you carried out personal attacks? No. I said you're arrogant, not to mention patronizing and condescending.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtxMWSqzW-k

Post 3:00 mark you see one of the dark acolyte's wave their hand causing Maul to back off and then go on to talk about molding/creating individuals. Given this dialogue

How does Maul obeying them have anything to do with him being an illusion and not a resurrection? Not sure how the molding stuff disproves my point either.

Regardless, there's still no proof that his abilities changed. So as Tempest would say, your case relies on me being charitable to you when you're unwilling to lend me the same charity.

and the backing of TCW making this being an actual resurrection impossible that's pretty much all that really needs to be said on the subject.

That's what's called a retcon. Just like when Adi Gallia got killed by Grievous in Obsession but was killed by Savage instead in TCW.

The fact that a newer source with no regard for continuity chooses to revive the character itself doesn't mean older sources are discredited entirely.

They don't raise their blades until after Tiin and Kolar are cut down as well.

We've gone over this already.

Fair enough though why it matters to you what affected Yoda's intent I can't begin to imagine.

Nobody's ever been hurt from additional context. Especially since most people would cite Yoda's history with Dooku as a counter to my claim that Yoda wanted to destroy Dooku, so I needed to ensure the claim didn't sound ridiculous.

Is this not the passive-aggressive patronizing that you're accusing me of? 😬

Did I say you carried out personal attacks? No. I said you're arrogant, not to mention patronizing and condescending.

Condescending is patronizing, lol. I don't recall doing that to others except in jest, which everyone here does. Please get some thicker skin. You're the only one here who whinges and whines about other people's personality.

On a cursed moon, Maul is miraculously resurrected through the power of the dark side and challenges Vader to the Sith legacy.

- Taken from Insider 83

Can this be put to rest now?

It should've been ages ago, but thanks for providing more evidence that it was resurrection.

The TCW argument's invalid, since it's a retcon. That's all there is to it, frankly.

I prefer it just being a different continuity...but then you know my stance regarding TCW..

Well, honestly, it would clear up quite a few discrepancies, if anything.

pa·tron·ize
ˈpātrəˌnīz,ˈpatrəˌnīz/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: patronizing
1.
treat with an apparent kindness that betrays a feeling of superiority.

con·de·scend·ing
ˌkändəˈsendiNG/Submit
adjective
1. having or showing a feeling of patronizing superiority.

F*ck off.

Look, you're obviously unwilling to let this arrogance thing go, so I'm not going to respond to that again.

Are you going to respond to the rest of it?

Originally posted by SunRazer
How does Maul obeying them have anything to do with him being an illusion and not a resurrection? Not sure how the molding stuff disproves my point either.

Regardless, there's still no proof that his abilities changed. So as Tempest would say, your case relies on me being charitable to you when you're unwilling to lend me the same charity.

That's what's called a retcon. Just like when Adi Gallia got killed by Grievous in Obsession but was killed by Savage instead in TCW.

The fact that a newer source with no regard for continuity chooses to revive the character itself doesn't mean older sources are discredited entirely.

We've gone over this already.

Nobody's ever been hurt from additional context. Especially since most people would cite Yoda's history with Dooku as a counter to my claim that Yoda wanted to destroy Dooku, so I needed to ensure the claim didn't sound ridiculous.

Is this not the passive-aggressive patronizing that you're accusing me of? 😬

What reason would he have to obey them? The fact that the acolyte talks about molding and creating an individual and can apparently control his actions with a wave of his hand is telling.

Regardless why is any of this relevant when this Maul/Vader comic is non canon anyways?

That's exactly what it means. It decanonizes the retconned source.

We did. You failed to respond to the point instead leading the debate around in a circle till we got back to where we started.

I already made it clear that I agreed Yoda had the intent to kill in DR so it's more an example of you not paying attention.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Look, you're obviously unwilling to let this arrogance thing go, so I'm not going to respond to that again.

Are you going to respond to the rest of it?

Go jerk yourself.

Mace.

Uh-Oh Synd is having another episode.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What reason would he have to obey them? The fact that the acolyte talks about molding and creating an individual and can apparently control his actions with a wave of his hand is telling.

Because they're more powerful? Because they were the ones who returned him to life?

Zen already gave you the quote proving that it's resurrection.

I'm waiting for you to show me the quote where he grew in skill or power. Otherwise, we're wasting our time with this back-and-forth.

Regardless why is any of this relevant when this Maul/Vader comic is non canon anyways?]

It's Legends. It was written with TPM Maul and Darth Vader in mind, obviously. That's what it's showing.

We did. You failed to respond to the point instead leading the debate around in a circle till we got back to where we started.

I've responded to you on this many times 😬

We clearly just don't agree on where Mace and Dooku lie relative to Yoda and Palpatine, so we may as well agree to disagree.

I already made it clear that I agreed Yoda had the intent to kill in DR so it's more an example of you not paying attention.

Well, we've spent most of this discussion repeating ourselves, so I hardly think this is something new on either of our behalves.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Go jerk yourself.

I'll remember to respond like that next time somebody offers to stop doing something that's annoying me.

Seriously, I don't know what you want from me.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Because they're more powerful? Because they were the ones who returned him to life?

Zen already gave you the quote proving that it's resurrection.

I'm waiting for you to show me the quote where he grew in skill or power. Otherwise, we're wasting our time with this back-and-forth.

It's Legends. It was written with TPM Maul and Darth Vader in mind, obviously. That's what it's showing.

I've responded to you on this many times 😬

We clearly just don't agree on where Mace and Dooku lie relative to Yoda and Palpatine, so we may as well agree to disagree.

Well, we've spent most of this discussion repeating ourselves, so I hardly think this is something new on either of our behalves.

It's a single acolyte and Sidious fries all 3 of them to ash like it's nothing. If they were more powerful then Maul to the degree Maul couldn't resist their commands why didn't they kill Vader themselves?

TPM Maul's skills were left ambiguous meaning he couldn't be used as a scale for Mace's own ability if we were going off the basis of the retcon and non canon status of this comic making the whole argument obsolete.

It was non canon even within Legends continuity was it not?

I don't care what you do.

👆

Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll remember to respond like that next time somebody offers to stop doing something that's annoying me.

Seriously, I don't know what you want from me.

*Sigh*

Let's just put hostilities to the side for the time being.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It's a single acolyte and Sidious fries them all to ash like it's nothing.

What single acolyte?

And indeed, Sidious would fry Maul like nothing if he unleashed his full power.

If they were more powerful then Maul to the degree Maul couldn't resist Sidious's commands why didn't they kill Vader themselves?

Vader was more powerful than Maul at that point as well. The Prophets were obviously powerful, but that didn't mean they were capable combatants.

Additionally, it's possible that if they resurrected him, they would have a measure of control over him as well.

TPM Maul's skills were left ambiguous meaning he couldn't be used as a scale for Mace's own ability if we were going off the basis of the retcon and non canon status of this comment making the whole argument obsolete.

There's nothing non-canon about it.

The retcon I was referring to was the fact that Maul came back after TPM. It doesn't really directly impact the comic too much.

It was non canon even within Legends continuity was it not?

No. It still exists in the continuity.

I don't care what you do.

👆

I think we can settle most of our points by agreeing to disagreeing. We've made no progress over several pages and the discussion just seems to be increasing tensions.

Originally posted by SunRazer

I think we can settle most of our points by agreeing to disagreeing. We've made no progress over several pages and the discussion just seems to be increasing tensions.

Very mature of you 👆