Originally posted by SunRazer
Hmm... I have a tendency to think these are Legends versions. Where Vader is weaker than Anakin, at least in sabers.That's no proof Ferus saw Mace in action.
Growing more powerful doesn't make you more skilled. Vader's adversary in ANH, Ben Kenobi, speaks to that.
Quote?
Why not? He was a youngling for over a decade. We know the CM's sparred for the benefit of the younglings and this is even confirmed in the canon Kanan comic as well. I don't see any reason to think he hadn't though that would only place Vader about TPM-AotC Mace.
It makes you have superior precognition, perception, reflexes and augmentation though. I've come to terms that Obi Wan as Old Ben likely isn't far from his RotS incarnation though I didn't want to accept it for a long time.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Honestly padawans shouldn't even perceive duels between council members.
Considering Obi Wan and Anakin were able to actually percieve sub light fighters as dots of light I'm inclined to believe a Force user's perception is going to be far greater then the speed they're capable of moving at with augmentation.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Quote?
Not using Insider #62 quotes, since it's outdated.
A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends - including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader - recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter - fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions.-- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force
There's supposed to be another one but I can't find it at the moment.
Why not? He was a youngling for over a decade. We know the CM's sparred for the benefit of the younglings and this is even confirmed in the canon Kanan comic as well. I don't see any reason to think he hadn't though that would only place Vader about TPM-AotC Mace.
Well, as you said, it's pre-prime Mace, but just because some CM's sparred in front of Younglings doesn't mean that he necessarily saw Mace. And even if he did, Mace has a tendency to hold back in spars, unless I'm missing something.
It makes you have superior precognition, perception, reflexes and augmentation though. I've come to terms that Obi Wan as Old Ben likely isn't far from his RotS incarnation though I didn't want to accept it for a long time.
Not necessarily. And Old Ben is also described as a shadow of his former self in Insider #62, not to mention Death Star and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force also claiming that he had deteriorated from both age and lack of practice. He isn't "far" from RotS Obi-Wan, but that doesn't mean he's close, either.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not using Insider #62 quotes, since it's outdated.There's supposed to be another one but I can't find it at the moment.
Well, as you said, it's pre-prime Mace, but just because some CM's sparred in front of Younglings doesn't mean that he necessarily saw Mace. And even if he did, Mace has a tendency to hold back in spars, unless I'm missing something.
Not necessarily. And Old Ben is also described as a shadow of his former self in Insider #62, not to mention Death Star and Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force also claiming that he had deteriorated from both age and lack of practice. He isn't "far" from RotS Obi-Wan, but that doesn't mean he's close, either.
It says Vader fought cautiously and implies that his motions were reduced which makes sense given we know Vader's mobility is reduced as a result of the suit. We know he makes up for this other ways though as is confirmed in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and The Force Unleashed.
I'm saying it's likely he did see him. And while I acknowledge Mace probably grew throughout the Clone Wars I disagree with you on the margin. Also proof that Mace has a tendency for holding back in spars?
Granted but we know it's likely in an outright duel Vader isn't going to dominate a for the most part defensive fighter like RotS Kenobi especially with his hampered motion and it would likely be a long battle of attrition. Old Ben grew in power but atrophied in skill which should mean Vader would be able to press him better then he would RotS Kenobi but of course not to the point he'd be dominating Old Ben either which as we see is the case in their fight.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
It says Vader fought cautiously and implies that his motions were reduced which makes sense given we know Vader's mobility is reduced as a result of the suit. We know he makes up for this other ways though as is confirmed in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader and The Force Unleashed.
Regrettably, I haven't been able to find my third quote. I only have Insider #62's "shadow of a former self" and the "armor reduced his actions" quote from LGWF. The "reduced his actions" part does still imply inferiority to RotS Anakin in that regard. But perhaps a feat-based comparison would work as well? 🙂
I'm saying it's likely he did see him. And while I acknowledge Mace probably grew throughout the Clone Wars I disagree with you on the margin.
Perhaps.
Also proof that Mace has a tendency for holding back in spars?
The Vos spar.
Granted but we know it's likely in an outright duel Vader isn't going to dominate a for the most part defensive fighter like RotS Kenobi especially with his hampered motion and it would likely be a long battle of attrition. Old Ben grew in power but atrophied in skill which should mean Vader would be able to press him better then he would RotS Kenobi but of course not to the point he'd be dominating Old Ben either which as we see is the case in their fight.
Which is why growing more powerful doesn't always lead to better skill. Or even increased augmentations. That requires increased mastery of those abilities on one's part as well.
Originally posted by SunRazer
But perhaps a feat-based comparison would work as well? 🙂The Vos spar.
Which is why growing more powerful doesn't always lead to better skill. Or even increased augmentations. That requires increased mastery of those abilities on one's part as well.
Sure.
The Vos spar? He sparred with Depa in canon as well to test her health and he obviously wasn't going all out to prevent reinjuring her. Was his spar with Vos something similar?
His limitation is due to his mental/emotional frame of mind in facing Kenobi and his reduced mobility by the suit rather then his increased power not providing him with superior augmentation though.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Sure.The Vos spar? He sparred with Depa in canon as well to test her health and he obviously wasn't going all out to prevent reinjuring her. Was his spar with Vos something similar?
His limitation is due to his mental/emotional frame of mind in facing Kenobi and his reduced mobility by the suit rather then his increased power not providing him with superior augmentation though.
1. What feats/accolades are better on Vader's part?
2. He was obviously going very casual on Vos (he even had his back turned to him at times), and refrained from going all-out until Vos showed Vaapad, at which point Mace ended the fight immediately. Not to mention that Dooku and Kolar etc. stomped Vos immediately around this time, so obviously Mace was holding back.
Also the fact that he's equal to Saesee in their spar, even though we know he's better.
3. Perhaps. Mace's agility edge remains the most pertinent of all physical edges in this fight, IMO.
Stalemating 4 Jedi simultaneously early on in the Purge, surviving against dozens of Jedi long enough for reinforcements to arrive and being solidly above Starkiller as a lightsaber combatant not long before the OT. These feats are just the foundation I base my opinions though given I believe his logical increase in skill from his Anakin incarnation and confirmed growth in power is enough to place him above as a lightsaber combatant.
Granted if he sparred for padawans he probably couldn't move at his full speed against another master without defeating them quickly but perhaps he took part in similar demonstrations as Yoda where he could have put his full speed on display ( Yoda blitzing 3 armed masters bereft of a lightsaber ).
I think Vader's strength comes close but the agility is likely the most relevant physical factor in regards to a Vader and Mace fight though combat speed which I feel favors Vader could top it.
1. ANH Vader was also losing to the Maul clone 😬 Or at best, if we take the Dark Side Prophets' commentary, they were about even.
Mace being in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious as a swordsman, a tier above Obi-Wan, and having equality with Dooku, who's held his own against Yoda, held his own against Obi-Wan + Anakin, defeated Grievous easily many times, etc. is above Vader.
Vader fought the Jedi in a contest of more than just skill, if we're thinking of the same instance.
2. Yeah, so you're just wildly speculating now. The point's lost.
3. Mace can contend with Vader's strength just fine. Agility appeared a major problem for Vader when he fought the Maul clone.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Pretty sure it was less than a dozen and they fought Vader 1 at a time more or less. And I hope those 4 Jedi aren't the wounded agricultural corp Jedi he fights in RoDV, lol.Also Starkiller > Vader in sabers in the games.
It was multiple dozens if I recall correctly.
No it was from a comic not the RoDV novel.
Starkiller or Galen?
Originally posted by SunRazer
1. ANH Vader was also losing to the Maul clone 😬Mace being in the same tier as Yoda and Sidious as a swordsman and equality with Dooku, who's held his own against Yoda, held his own against Obi-Wan + Anakin, defeated Grievous easily many times, etc. is above Vader.
Vader fought the Jedi in a contest of more than just skill, if we're thinking of the same instance.
2. Yeah, so you're just wildly speculating now. The point's lost.
3. Mace can contend with Vader's strength just fine. Agility appeared a major problem for Vader when he fought the Maul clone.
1. Who's capabilities we don't know considering it could have been a manifested Force illusion or an actual clone. Personally I favor the former given that's a simpler solution then actually cloning Maul and putting implanted memories into him and then convincing him to fight Vader.
Mace defeated Grievous? As far as I'm aware he dropped a ship on him once, Force crushed him in the miniseries, and was even in lightsaber combat with a Grievous more hindered then him in LoE.
We already know the tiers are extremely wonky and not suitable for actual use in debate given the placement of certain characters and their performances against certain members of other tiers despite what we're told about the vast difference between tiers.
Mace during the Clone Wars was stated to maybe be a match for Dooku on neutral ground. Nothing was confirmed. And Dooku himself could hold off Yoda but was not his equal.
Mace was unable to even react as his fellow Jedi were slaughtered around him. He's no peer of Sidious or Yoda as a lightsaber combatant.
2. I'm saying it's not unreasonable that in one of the many spars the CM's took part in Mace would have gotten the chance to demonstrate his full speed.
3. Honestly that depends on Force power in relation to augmentation. But for the sake of the debate I'll put that to the side.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Who's capabilities we don't know considering it could have been a manifested Force illusion or an actual clone. Personally I favor the former given that's a simpler solution then actually cloning Maul and putting implanted memories into him and then convincing him to fight Vader.
It's supposed to be a resurrection of Maul, and I believe the authors talked about how they wanted this to answer fan questions on Maul vs Vader? So if you consider its ability different to that of TPM Maul's, the onus is on you to prove it.
Mace defeated Grievous? As far as I'm aware he dropped a ship on him once, Force crushed him in the miniseries, and was even in lightsaber combat with a Grievous more hindered then him in LoE.
Read. I said Dooku defeated Grievous repeatedly, and Mace is Dooku's equal.
We already know the tiers are extremely wonky and not suitable for actual use in debate given the placement of certain characters and their performances against certain members of other tiers despite what we're told about the vast difference between tiers.
I found the quote for Anakin being tier 7, so the tiering system begins to make sense again. It was only the strange quote about "four levels" between AotC and RotS.
Mace during the Clone Wars was stated to maybe be a match for Dooku on neutral ground. Nothing was confirmed.
Actually, the quote says Mace might have been the only Jedi who was equal to Dooku, not that he might have been equal to Dooku. So yeah, it's a pretty solid confirmation.
Not to mention that we know Mace was a factually better duelist than Dooku when the two were Jedi, so if anything, Mace would still be better, not the other way around. The equality quote is the only thing preventing that from happening.
And Dooku himself could hold off Yoda but was not his equal.
You don't need to repeat what I said.
Mace was unable to even react as his fellow Jedi were slaughtered around him. He's no peer of Sidious or Yoda as a lightsaber combatant.
According to a supplementary source. Both the RotS novel and the film disagree, as Mace is visibly shown fighting Sidious before Kit Fisto dies. And guess what takes precedence?
2. I'm saying it's not unreasonable that in one of the many spars the CM's took part in Mace would have gotten the chance to demonstrate his full speed.
Doubt it, and it's also possible that Ferus simply wasn't there for few ones where he did show his full speed. The possibility games go both ways.
3. Honestly that depends on Force power in relation to augmentation. But for the sake of the debate I'll put that to the side.
A wise decision.