Originally posted by SunRazer
I'll have to find it. Pretty sure Erkan was the one who posted it, funnily enough.In any event, I don't need it. It's now up to you to prove that this incarnation of Maul has distinct abilities from the TPM incarnation, since I proved that it was a resurrection.
He seems less skilled than Anakin.
Where? He's amped virtually the entire time against Sidious.
You don't really understand the quote, do you?
"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" - the "perhaps" isn't calling into question whether or not Mace is his equal, but calling into question whether or not he's the only one. So as I said, the comparison itself is concrete.
You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.
What actions? In the novel, Saesee and Agen move up ahead of Mace and get cut down immediately. Mace reacts in time to fight with Kit, all the same.
Doubt it's anything meaningful. Vader wasn't outspeeding RotJ Luke, whose speed feats Mace has matched.
That sounds like telekinesis. Regardless, gundarks seem capable of doing that, and Mace broke out of their grip.
It is true, though. Regardless, RotJ Luke matched Vader's strength fine. I'm not seeing why Mace wouldn't, given his own showings.
You haven't proved that though... Even if this Maul were a clone it doesn't mean his capabilities would be the same. Regardless Vader's performance against an opponent of TPM Maul's caliber isn't relevant to his capabilities decades later.
Regardless of what he seems he logically is more skilled meaning it doesn't matter.
At the beginning of his fight when his team mates are blitzed.
Pleas prove that. I think it's saying "perhaps he would've been or perhaps not." Not that perhaps only Mace would implying more people also could've been his equal. Explain why your interpretation is more valid then mine.
I'm sorry but I just checked the fight scene and read the passage for it and nowhere in either of those do Saesee or Agen take the lead. The movie has Mace at the forefront and the novel has Sidious blitzing Agen so quickly that Fisto and Mace only have time to raise their blades.
Except Luke matching Mace is a speed feat superior to Mace if indeed Vader is faster which is the point. You can't use reverse scaling to assign a speed for RotJ Luke. Lmao.
What is the demonstrated strength of a gundark?
It wouldn't make much of a difference in the fight but the advantage should be noted.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
You haven't proved that though... Even if this Maul were a clone it doesn't mean his capabilities would be the same. Regardless Vader's performance against an opponent of TPM Maul's caliber isn't relevant to his capabilities decades later.
It's a direct resurrection of him from TPM Maul. Why would there be any disparity in combative prowess? If such a thing exists, then it is your burden to prove it, not mine to disprove what doesn't exist.
Regardless of what he seems he logically is more skilled meaning it doesn't matter.
Again, based on what? If it's a direct resurrection of TPM Maul, what "logic" would dictate that Maul had grown stronger?
At the beginning of his fight when his team mates are blitzed.
He was standing away from them. In the film, you clearly see him getting into a battle-ready position as soon as Sidious lands, even before Agen was impaled. Since Sidious spun away from Mace to strike Saesee next, it's obvious that Mace couldn't have followed up on Agen's death. Of course Sidious is faster, but the film doesn't show a blitz-tier difference.
Pleas prove that. I think it's saying "perhaps he would've been or perhaps not." Not that perhaps only Mace would implying more people also could've been his equal. Explain why your interpretation is more valid then mine.
Because my interpretation's correct. I don't want to sound pompous, but that's simply what the text says.
"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal". Please, explain the words that prove that Mace might not have been his equal. "Perhaps"? That's in accordance with "only", which results in "perhaps only" - which, as I said, suggests that there might have been others. There's no part of the text that suggests that Mace might've been a lesser duelist than Dooku. Ask anyone else on the forum.
I'm sorry but I just checked the fight scene and read the passage for it and nowhere in either of those do Saesee or Agen take the lead. The movie has Mace at the forefront and the novel has Sidious blitzing Agen so quickly that Fisto and Mace only have time to raise their blades.
Then you weren't checking hard enough.
The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door.-- Revenge of the Sith
Kolar and Tiin moved in towards Sidious, so obviously they'd be prone to being blitzed, and Mace wouldn't be able to respond in time.
For the movie, Mace clearly moves back once Sidious does his snarly-spin.
Except Luke matching Mace is a speed feat superior to Mace if indeed Vader is faster which is the point. You can't use reverse scaling to assign a speed for RotJ Luke. Lmao.
The RotJ novel would imply that Luke moving at a speed within the breadth of thought would be sufficient to fight Vader with no noticeable disparity. Mace has done that.
Regardless, if you agree that Jedi Council Members sometimes spar with one another without holding themselves back, then Mace has contended with Yoda, which is beyond any speed feat from Luke or Vader. And is proof that Sidious can't blitz him.
What is the demonstrated strength of a gundark?
I'm pretty sure you can approximate the strength of beasts from their size. As far as Legends go, they were sometimes favored in gladiatorial combat against rancors, which would suggest that their strength was comparable.
It wouldn't make much of a difference in the fight but the advantage should be noted.
My point about Mace's agility being the most pertinent physical advantage here still stands.
Originally posted by SunRazer
"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal". Please, explain the words that prove that Mace might not have been his equal. "Perhaps"? That's in accordance with "only", which results in "perhaps only" - which, as I said, suggests that there might have been others. There's no part of the text that suggests that Mace might've been a lesser duelist than Dooku. Ask anyone else on the forum.
👆
It's especially true if you consider the timeline. By Y: DR Anakin at the very least should be Dooku's equal, if not superior.
Not to mention that Mace was a factually better duelist before Dooku left the Order. Dooku grew, but so did Mace (Zoltan or someone else, can you fetch me the quote about him improving after Haruun Kal?), so it makes little sense that Dooku would now surpass the younger Mace. And the abundance of sources and portrayals of them as equals only strengthens the point.
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Not to mention that Mace was a factually better duelist before Dooku left the Order. Dooku grew, but so did Mace (Zoltan or someone else, can you fetch me the quote about him improving after Haruun Kal?), so it makes little sense that Dooku would now surpass the younger Mace. And the abundance of sources and portrayals of them as equals only strengthens the point.
"Reckoned" means character opinion. Besides, we already had quotes for that, which were also character opinion 😬
Mace's objective one takes precedence.
On the other hand, I'm taking the quote further than any of you, using Mace's quote to prove that Dooku is the 3rd best duelist ever in the history of the Jedi Order up to and of his time. Mace is the 2nd best Jedi duelist ever up to TPM, and of course Yoda is the best. Not that a whole lot of people wank OT-era duelists above them, but just in case.
Mace's objective quotes either refer to him on the Council(which Dooku is not a part of) or were made before Dooku was a concept.
The only one that isn't fallible because of the two reasons above is from the Vehicle collection, which is a bit vague as to which Mace is refers to, though you can argue it is referring to prime Mace, so Mace eclipsed Jedi Dooku later in life, but not as of TPM.
Originally posted by MythLord
Mace's objective quotes either refer to him on the Council(which Dooku is not a part of) or were made before Dooku was a concept.The only one that isn't fallible because of the two reasons above is from the Vehicle collection, which is a bit vague as to which Mace is refers to, though you can argue it is referring to prime Mace, so Mace eclipsed Jedi Dooku later in life, but not as of TPM.
Mace has no objective quotes marking him as a better duelist bar the one I posted, only ones marking him as more powerful, but as you say, they were retconned. Also, Dooku was stupidly retconned to being on the Council, apparently.
Anyway, I'd love to take that interpretation, but it's only taking history up to and of TPM. Otherwise, Anakin and Luke would be worth mentioning.
Originally posted by MythLordLol at an opinion demolishing anything.
I found a quote that says Jedi Dooku is >/= TPM Mace... Now we can apply Dooku's logically superior power-growth to the matter and Tyranus ends up being superior.If nothing else, I completely demolished any theory that Dooku is inferior to Mace, as of TPM.
Originally posted by SunRazer
He might have left before he resigned from the Order. I think it was TCW or something that said he was on the Council? Something stupid, that's for sure.Is it? That might be a more valid explanation, actually.
Well, then that still doesn't count since that accolade was as of TPM, specifically, so when Dooku wasn't on the Council. And damn TCW...
Yeah, I think it is. I need to ask Sentinal, though, since I'm not 100% certain.