Mace vs Vader sabers only

Originally posted by SunRazer
It's supposed to be a resurrection of Maul, and I believe the authors talked about how they wanted this to answer fan questions on Maul vs Vader? So if consider it's ability different to that of TPM Maul's, the onus is on you to prove it.

Read. I said Dooku defeated Grievous repeatedly, and Mace is Dooku's equal.

I found the quote for Anakin being tier 7, so the tiering system begins to make sense again. It was only the strange quote about "four levels" between AotC and RotS.

Actually, the quote says Mace might have been the only Jedi who was equal to Dooku, not that he might have been equal to Dooku. So yeah, it's a pretty solid confirmation.

Not to mention that we know Mace was a factually better duelist than Dooku when the two were Jedi, so if anything, Mace would still be better, not the other way around. The equality quote is the only thing preventing that from happening.

You don't need to repeat what I said.

According to a supplementary source. Both the RotS novel and the film disagree, as Mace is visibly shown fighting Sidious before Kit Fisto dies. And guess what takes precedence?

Doubt it, and it's also possible that Ferus simply wasn't there for few ones where he did show his full speed. The possibility games go both ways.

A wise decision.

1. Could you provide the quote please?

Ah, Dooku may be above Vader in technical skill but as an overall lightsaber combatant I think he'd lose and based on his fight with Anakin the logical gap in skill between Dooku and Vader should be marginal.

I'm referring to Mace being put on the same tier as Sidious and Yoda despite his performance against Sidious in the novel when unamped.

"Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"

What was dat boi? 🙂

Except that Dooku has confirmed to have grown greatly in power upon his conversion to the Darkside where he would have expanded his knowledge and power greatly under Sidious's tutelage whereas Mace has no such confirmation or base for growth.

And you don't need to be condescending. 🙂

They're both G canon so neither. And Mace reacting after 2 of his allies have been slain doesn't speak well for his "parity" either.

2. Why would Ferus have missed a spar between CM's? Even if he was allowed to what youngling wouldn't want to see masters that they admire go at it in an epic clash?

3. Oh really? If you want to be pompous about it then I'll ask you what feats of strength Mace has comparable to physically ragdolling TIE's.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Great. You concede on the rest?

Take it back. I will be making an issue of physical strength in relation to force power. 🙂

You should take mercy when it's granted to you Novie. :Y

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. Could you provide the quote please?

"There are ways those who are no more can live again".

"We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."

Ah, Dooku may be above Vader in technical skill but as an overall lightsaber combatant I think he'd lose and based on his fight with Anakin the logical gap in skill between Dooku and Vader should be marginal.

We're talking about skill. And in overall combat, Anakin > Vader.

I'm referring to Mace being put on the same tier as Sidious and Yoda despite his performance against Sidious in the novel when unamped.

You don't really see his performance against Sidious when unamped?

"Among the other Jedi, [b]perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground"

What was dat boi? 🙂[/b]

"Perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal", not "Mace Windu was perhaps his equal". So it's confirmed. The "perhaps" means that there might be someone else who's an equal of Dooku - ie. Anakin Skywalker.

Except that Dooku has confirmed to have grown greatly in power upon his conversion to the Darkside where he would have expanded his knowledge and power greatly under Sidious's tutelage whereas Mace has no such confirmation or base for growth.

Didn't you just give up on arguing that power growth = combat growth? Mace grew after his experience on Haruun Kal, IIRC. For Dooku, you can bring up that Insider quote where it's claimed that his lightsaber skills got even more formidable when he joined the dark side.

And you don't need to be condescending. 🙂

I'm not. Although I'm very tempted to be right now. 🙂

They're both G canon so neither. And Mace reacting after 2 of his allies have been slain doesn't speak well for his "parity" either.

There's no G-Canon, but if it were, it'd be the novel and the film. Not The Complete Visual Dictionary, which is the source claiming that Mace couldn't reach.

2. Why would Ferus have missed a spar between CM's? Even if he was allowed to what youngling wouldn't want to see masters that they admire go at it in an epic clash?

I don't know. Maybe he was going to his modelling trials?

My point is that this is all baseless speculation. And even if Vader was faster, would that make an impact here?

3. Oh really? If you want to be pompous about it then I'll ask you what feats of strength Mace has comparable to physically ragdolling TIE's.

There's nothing pompous. I'm saying it's wise because we both know there's nothing to be gained from continuing the discussion. You're overreacting, as usual 😬

Show me where he's physically ragdolled TIE's. And Mace breaking out of the grips of Gundarks in media where portrayals of the Force are suppressed like in TCW, relative to exaggerated ones in TFU, is comparable.

Or causing a shockwave that sent Magnaguards flying by charging at Dooku, though you can argue that telekinesis was involved.

Originally posted by SunRazer
"There are ways those who are no more can live again".

"We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the master... rather than tolerate one who is tainted."

We're talking about skill. And in overall combat, Anakin > Vader.

You don't really see his performance against Sidious when unamped?

"Perhaps only Mace Windu was his equal", not "Mace Windu was perhaps his equal". So it's confirmed. The "perhaps" means that there might be someone else who's an equal of Dooku - ie. Anakin Skywalker.

I'm not. Although I'm very tempted to be right now. 🙂

There's no G-Canon, but if it were, it'd be the novel and the film. Not The Complete Visual Dictionary, which is the source claiming that Mace couldn't reach.

I don't know. Maybe he was going to his modelling trials?

My point is that this is all baseless speculation. And even if Vader was faster, would that make an impact here?

There's nothing pompous. I'm saying it's wise because we both know there's nothing to be gained from continuing the discussion. You're overreacting, as usual 😬

Show me where he's physically ragdolled TIE's. And Mace breaking out of the grips of Gundarks in media where portrayals of the Force are suppressed like in TCW, relative to exaggerated ones in TFU, is comparable.

Or causing a shockwave by charging at Dooku, though you can argue that telekinesis may have been involved.

1. The quote from the author you referred to.

Why? Vader would hold the same advantages over Dooku as Anakin ( to larger degrees even ) except in mobility.

We see he can't react to Sidious when unamped.

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" not "Perhaps Mace Windu was his equal."

Maybe you're doing it unconsciously. 🙂

I'm not using as the source to back up my assertion. I'm using the novel and Mace's actions within it.

That Vader potentially has a slight advantage in combative speed.

"After avoiding an Imperial dropship, Starkiller comes to a large tower, which he knocks down by throwing several TIE fighters at it." - TFUII Prima Guide.

There's a cutscene of it but I'd have to look through the TFUII gameplay videos.

Using the exaggerated medium argument Nova? Really? :/

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Exar has done nothing to place him above Vader, lmao. Or to tie him either, really.

LMAO. He stalemated an Ulic immensely more powerful than the one who stomped Warb Null, a master swordsman with the combative experience and knowledge of Freedon Nadd, who rivals Tulak Hord in Jedi kills. Whilst Kun was prr-prime and wasn't using the style that made him 'virtually unstoppable' in a lightsaber duel and allowed him to give a Weapon Master in Vodo Siosk-Baas, the most skilled Jedi duelist in the combative prime of the Jedi Order, no chance at all.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
1. The quote from the author you referred to.

I'll have to find it. Pretty sure Erkan was the one who posted it, funnily enough.

In any event, I don't need it. It's now up to you to prove that this incarnation of Maul has distinct abilities from the TPM incarnation, since I proved that it was a resurrection.

Why? Vader would hold the same advantages over Dooku as Anakin ( to larger degrees even ) except in mobility.

He seems less skilled than Anakin.

We see he can't react to Sidious when unamped.

Where? He's amped virtually the entire time against Sidious.

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" not "Perhaps Mace Windu was his equal."

You don't really understand the quote, do you?

"Perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal" - the "perhaps" isn't calling into question whether or not Mace is his equal, but calling into question whether or not he's the only one. So as I said, the comparison itself is concrete.

Maybe you're doing it unconsciously. 🙂

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment.

I'm not using as the source to back up my assertion. I'm using the novel and Mace's actions within it.

What actions? In the novel, Saesee and Agen move up ahead of Mace and get cut down immediately. Mace reacts in time to fight with Kit, all the same.

That Vader potentially has a slight advantage in combative speed.

Doubt it's anything meaningful. Vader wasn't outspeeding RotJ Luke, whose speed feats Mace has matched.

"After avoiding an Imperial dropship, Starkiller comes to a large tower, which he knocks down by throwing several TIE fighters at it." - TFUII Prima Guide.

There's a cutscene of it but I'd have to look through the TFUII gameplay videos.

That sounds like telekinesis. Regardless, gundarks seem capable of doing that, and Mace broke out of their grip.

Using the exaggerated medium argument Nova? Really? :/

It is true, though. Regardless, RotJ Luke matched Vader's strength fine. I'm not seeing why Mace wouldn't, given his own showings.

Going to bed. Will respond tomorrow.

Originally posted by AncientPower
LMAO. He stalemated an Ulic immensely more powerful than the one who stomped Warb Null, a master swordsman with the combative experience and knowledge of Freedon Nadd, who rivals Tulak Hord in Jedi kills. Whilst Kun was prr-prime and wasn't using the style that made him 'virtually unstoppable' in a lightsaber duel and allowed him to give a Weapon Master in Vodo Siosk-Baas, the most skilled Jedi duelist in the combative prime of the Jedi Order, no chance at all.

Yes, yes, yes, dahling. I'm well aware of all Exar showings having read the comic myself, and debater this topic with you and others countless times in the past.

I'm still not seeing anything that would rank him above Vader at all.

How about the reverse - what has Vader done that's better than Exar?

How about tomorrow in the appropriate thread, 'kay?

@Nova and the other Nova

I think in Dark Empire Sheev mentions Vader's incompetence in comparison to his younger self, stating Vader is a "sick man behind the mask" compared to what he once was. Though maybe that's outdated. mmm

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

Nee

We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing

--George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette

Boom Maul haters. "He was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku"
Suck nuts

"Like him[Maul]" as in just a tool. "Like him[Dooku]" as in an actually skilled tool.

Maul is sh!t and should remain sh!t.

Exactly, they're all tools. Vader isn't some god :/

Naturally. Vader and Tyranus aren't shit like Maul, tho.

Maul sucks, agreed, but what I really wanted to highlight is the softening gap between Dooku and Vader as duelists. Really, Dooku has some quality notches under his belt, all who come with a reference list of their own feats and accolades to credit their respective skills, while most of the names Vader has beaten are virtually featless, said to have declined in skill or are holistically crap.

Held his own against Yoda
Beaten Mace Windu in sparring practices
Beaten Obi-Wan and Anakin consecutively
Beaten Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously
Beaten Quinlan Vos
Beaten Grievous several times
Beaten Asajj Ventress

Vader has:
Beaten the Dark Woman
Beaten Celeste Morne
Beaten Roan Shryne
Fought as an equal with Luke
Fought as an equal with Old ben
Beaten Ashoka Tano

Originally posted by SunRazer
Mace has a tendency to hold back in spars, unless I'm missing something.

I'd say every jedi has that tendency (Luke and Fisto comes to mind as actual example). What's the point of sparring if you curb your opponents?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Maul sucks, agreed, but what I really wanted to highlight is the softening gap between Dooku and Vader as duelists. Really, Dooku has some quality notches under his belt, all who come with a reference list of their own feats and accolades to credit their respective skills, while most of the names Vader has beaten are virtually featless, said to have declined in skill or are holistically crap.

Held his own against Yoda
Beaten Mace Windu in sparring practices
Beaten Obi-Wan and Anakin consecutively
Beaten Tholme and Sora Bulq simultaneously
Beaten Quinlan Vos
Beaten Grievous several times
Beaten Asajj Ventress

Vader has:
Beaten the Dark Woman
Beaten Celeste Morne
Beaten Roan Shryne
Fought as an equal with Luke
Fought as an equal with Old ben
Beaten Ashoka Tano

I mean, Tyranus and Mace have always been greater than Vader saber-wise, but Vader's hype, knowledge, raw power and physicals make it an extremely good fight. But yeah, playing feat wars supports both Windu and Dooku over Anakin's mechanical half.