Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Dark Acolytes who's capabilities are unknown. This was also before his prime as you're likely well aware.
They actually aren't, here's something that details the Prophets of the Dark Side...those that are in the Resurrection comic.
They are quite powerful(relatively) and the moon they were on, was noted as focal point of the dark side.
Stories sure, but it makes sense since the Stormtroopers were feeling nauseous since they had set foot and it was only getting worse.
But even taking that away, the Prophets were still powerful.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
They actually aren't, here's something that details the Prophets of the Dark Side...those that are in the Resurrection comic.They are quite powerful(relatively) and the moon they were on, was noted as focal point of the dark side.
Stories sure, but it makes sense since the Stormtroopers were feeling nauseous since they had set foot and it was only getting worse.
But even taking that away, the Prophets were still powerful.
I'm talking about the powers of the individual members and that only if we're assuming the doppleganger was something created by them.
Granted yes, they should be decently powerful.
Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Anyway Syn, Ben Kenobi isn't nearly as formidable as his prime self in ROTS, lightsaber skill and augmentation included. That's something you will simply have to accept. And TCW doesn't retcon the Maul in resurrection unless Maul is still alive past A new hope.
What evidence do you have for his power or augmentation declining?
It does because Maul seeks revenge for the death of his brother and mother and his own betrayal by Sidious in Rebels. He wouldn't fight Vader to have the chance at becoming Sidious's apprentice unless he was forced to by the Dark Acolytes.
The story based around Maul's mindset is both irrelevant and can be explained away by simple factors that allow us to suspend disbelief. The point of the comic was to present how TPM Maul would fair against Vader in Legends, and that's exactly what it does. These passive nuances do not retcon the comic and it still happened as part of C-Canon. As for Kenobi, numerous sources declaring him shadow of former self, that he's slower, out of practice, and not as strong as he use to be, indicate that his augmentation isn't what it use to be. Logically a 2 decade Exile sans practice would mean his skill degrades massively. Where is the evidence he's more powerful?
Originally posted by ZiggystardustI'd stick to that level of articulation in the future, anything more and it becomes seriously painful. 🙂
TPM Maul > ANH Vader, fax r fax
Originally posted by ZiggystardustSo, you've two pieces of evidence to counter my point here, one of which I've addressed already, so let's take a look at them.
Like many of the renowned events in Star Wars, Ben Kenobi vs Vader is covered by a number of sources that interpret, conjecture upon and reiterate the action viewed on-screen. There are also a few sources that comment on the fight, the Fightsaber article being one of them. Other than that, we have the New Hope Novel and the Death Star giving us an internal perspective of just what exactly is happening. Unsurprisingly, none of the literature describing the fight lines up with Beni's opinion. The Death Star Novel tells us the story from the thoughts of Vader, in which he believes to have the advantage, until Kenobi starts attacking back himself:"He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye."
- The Death Star
"During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields."
- Source: Insider 62: Fightsaber
So no, winning decisively is not how this fight can be described when Vader admits that the slightest moment of wavered concentration will end up with his head on a platter. Then we have the objective source claiming that Vader couldn't break his guard to put Beni's personal interpretation to a long awaited sleep laden with barbiturates. For some, this is a pill too hard to swallow. They simply can not admit, or do not understand why Vader can't defeat a an out-of-practice Old man, because it comes with several ground realities that are too close to home and too close to the bone. Vader is not in his prime, the cybernetic replacements prevent the Force from flowing through his body correctly, he no longer has the potential of the chosen one, and finally, he's slow and rigid, two traits that severely hamper his ability to wield a weightless glow stick against other people with weightless glowsticks. With all that considered, it isn't too hard to believe why Ben Kenobi can compete with Vader. He was intended to be a shadow of his former self, and that's exactly what he is.
He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.I'm afraid this does not contradict the notion that Vader was winning decisively at all, only demonstrates that Kenobi was a lethal threat. And when even the most adept of Force sensitives can move "faster than thought" (see Ezra Bridger), obviously a split second lapse in anyone's concentration could be presented as potentially fatal.
Nonetheless the fact remains that Vader was never strained by his opponent's offense, whereas Kenobi was retreating and tiring almost throughout.
During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields.As I say, already addressed, the source is stating the obvious, that Vader failed to penetrate Obi-Wan defences (and in doing so, kill him) before Kenobi allows him to. But it doesn't preclude Vader breaking his defences if the fight had gone on. Instead, referring back to by original points, Kenobi's flagging stamina and diminishing ground made it rather inevitable.
Pretty weak response all in all Ziggy, maybe if you spent less time on your nonsense ramblings (hint, and this point we're all skim reading) and more time actually crafting an argument, this would be less embarrassing.The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan depicts what Ben was doing on Tatooine, and in this case if he's still keeping up his Jedi exercises two years into Imperial rule, I see no reason why he would abruptly stop when the threat of the Empire only continued to grow. Kenobi was tasked with the protection of Luke, which is not a task he could retire from when he hit 50, this source simply demonstrating he took that responsibility seriously."Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two light-sabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.
It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat."
- The Life and Legend of Obi Wan
The Life and Legend of Obi Wan is written two years after the events of Revenge of the Sith, it's specifically regarding Kenobi's engagement with Hett on Tatooine and therefor, has nor bearing on our little debate. On the contrary the sources mentioning Kenobi in A New Hope all note how out of practice he is, leading me to believe his skills are legitimately worse than Qui Gon Jinn's. He may still be a formidable Soresu practitioner, but please remember that this only produces a relative conviction and more importantly, folks like Coleman Trebor were credited with the same accolade.
As for Fightsaber's statement that "Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner", yes it's relative, to Kenobi's former prowess as a warrior, in which case he still appears to retains a good deal of his previous deadly skill.
Finally I can only assume the complete lack of an attempt to address RotS Kenobi's gross superiority to Jinn as to be a concession. Graciously accepted.
"Resurrected" implies it was actually Darth Maul, instead according to Leland Chee there is no certainty at all on what it is:Vader's performance against the resurrected Darth Maul - aka the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices demonstrates that Jinn would do pretty well against former, all considering. Nova gave me the quote confirming this is part of C-canon, so the validity of the source is no longer in question, Maul not wanting to fight Vader in Rebels can be explained by a decline in skill and given that the Disney show is still featured before A New Hope, the idea of a resurrection is still plausible. The comic features Vader getting slapped pretty hard, perhaps worse than Jinn did. So using Maul as a measuring stick Jinn might even win this battle.
Leland Chee, SW.com Blogs (https://web.archive.org/web/20070121183048/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments)So no, I'm afraid the validity of the source, as far as it relates to the real Darth Maul's skill with a warrior, absolutely remains in question, and ultimately it appears only to be "a pretty cool battle." Shame.The Vader vs. Maul brawl is canon? It's not quite the real Darth Maul. Hence the "or something." Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing, just that Vader and Maul have a pretty cool battle.
Galen Marek does suck at duelling. For starters the almost part of perfecting - i.e mastering lightsaber combat, makes this a shit accolade. It simply means his level of skill is below Adi Gaila types. Now for his track record of fights, let's have a look at who he's duelled and what league they should be playing in.Adi Gallia? As in one of the best Jedi in the Order? That's high praise coming from you Ziggy. On the other hand yes, being a "near perfect" duelist suggests his combatively abilities are... near perfect, as opposed to severely lacking as you are attempting to make out.[b]Rham Kota
- Prominent feats :- Mastered Juyo? Possibly putting him on Vrook Lamar's level
Kazdan Paratus - Prominent feats :
....
Shaak ti - Prominent feats :
- Fought Grevious twice, lost instantly both times
- May or may not be amping her own power with her presence
- Out-duelling Galen Marek
Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :
- Out-dueling Galen Marek
Maris Brood - prominent feats :
...
So as we can see, fodder bemoans fodder... and on the original point, Galen's strength feats are all but non-existent. So where does he rest among the pantheon of duellists who haven't quite perfected lightsaber combat?
Galen is a solid ATOC Obi Wan leveler. [/B]
As for the rest? Do you really think this shit posting deserves a response? (Though Syn seems to have throughly destroyed it anyway, much appreciated) Honestly if that's the best you can do I suggest relocating to a place more your level. On the other hand in the absence of an actual rebuttal to my case regarding Shaak Ti, as well as my previous points still unaddressed on the Marek front, I can only assume a concession, again graciously accepted.
And for those not paying attention:
"Resurrected" implies it was actually Darth Maul, instead according to Leland Chee there is no certainty at all on what it is:[quote]Leland Chee, SW.com Blogs (https://web.archive.org/web/20070121183048/http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments)So no, I'm afraid the validity of the source, as far as it relates to the real Darth Maul's skill with a warrior, absolutely remains in question, and ultimately it appears only to be "a pretty cool battle." Shame.[/b][/quote][b]The Vader vs. Maul brawl is canon? It's not quite the real Darth Maul. Hence the "or something." Who knows, it could have been a vision like Luke confronting Vader on Dagobah or just some sort of Sith illusion. Or a clone. Nothing's been determined as to what we are actually seeing, just that Vader and Maul have a pretty cool battle.
On a cursed moon, Maul is miraculously resurrected through the power of the dark side and challenges Vader to the Sith legacy.- Taken from Insider 83
And there goes your argument you had to reiterate, twice. Chee isn't ruling out anything, lol, he simply wasn't aware - or couldn't recall the source and is giving his opinion on the matter.
Originally posted by ZiggystardustLol I appreciate the damage control, but coming from someone whose stated innumerable times that the Insider isn't canon, this is pretty pathetic. And the idea that the Keeper of the Holocron "forgot" or was "simply" unaware, in relation to canon, is just plain laughable.
And there goes your argument you had to reiterate, twice. Chee isn't ruling anything, lol, he simply wasn't aware - or couldn't recall the source.
Sorry, but the supervisor of (Legends) continuity > whoever wrote that article. Especially when Chee's comment is the most recent.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Lol I appreciate the damage control, but coming from someone whose stated innumerable times that the Insider isn't canon, this is pretty pathetic.
Views change, I also thought Vader was a competent fighter too.
Sorry, but the supervisor of continuity > whoever wrote that article. [/B]
Leland didn't specifically say it wasn't canon, all he did was ask questions about it. The Insider article validates it as a legitimate source, and thus ripping your argument of ANh Vader > Maul > Qui Gon.