Qui Gon Jinn vs Dark Woman

Started by Beniboybling9 pages

Vader can not embarrass Ashoka Tano
First off we are discussing Legends Vader, so Canon isn't really relevant here. But regardless I'll humour you, considering we all know that this debate is just a front for you to lowball little Annie, and maybe wank Jinn on the side.

Speaking of Jinn, I'm afraid he's inferior to Ahsoka by quite a sad margin.

Let's evaluate the evidence, namely by using Maul as a measuring stick. Once again I await evidence that he is past his prime in Rebels, but even assuming for a moment that to be the case, he's clearly still in good fighting shape, with the potential added benefit of a DS nexus, more to the point, the Maul Jinn faced was before his prime, having grown more powerful since his revival, and steadily stronger over the course of TCW.

So where Jinn had a foot in the grave against an (injured) pre-prime Maul withholding the full capabilities of his lightsaber, Ahsoka stonewalled a potentially nexus-amped Maul using the full extent of his weapon for four times the duration. After the fact Jinn was left battered and heaving like an abused whore, while Ahsoka went off to fight Vader without breaking a sweat. Even someone as mentally handicapped as you can work out who is better, and it's not Jinn.

As far as that concerns Vader? Well though he did not embarrass Ahsoka in their subsequent fight, he nonetheless maintained a decisive edge over her, so considering how vastly inferior Jinn is to Tano in comparison, I rather think he'd screw him over pretty badly, wouldn't you?

Again, I stand by my original premise:

Qui-Gon was rendered a 30 second affair by the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices, logic dictates that the strongest would give him an even greater spanking.
And so far you've failed pretty tragically to demonstrate otherwise.
Qui Gon Jinn's Embarrassment at the Hands of Vader - The Reasoning
I would like to think that yes, Marek's augmentative ability is largely relative to his overall strength as a Force user. In which case well exceeding that of Maul, and therefore begs proof of his ability to overpower such a person.

In relation to which you made a rather poor attempt to prove Marek an exception to his logic (despite being described as a near perfect duelist.) Don't assume your equally poor attempt to circumvent my counter-response has gone unnoticed. It's still ready and waiting for you on the other page. But naturally I'm sure your just gathering your sources.

While your doing that though let's revisit the topic of Shaak Ti, who 1. was considered one of the greatest swordmasters in the order, and in that respect is certainly in Jinn's league 2. backed by the power of a planetary nexus, and without any indication of decline in physicality or skill (instead in communion with a planet so saturated in the Force, probably got stronger) undoubtedly outstrips his capabilities.

You argue that Ti "decimated" Marek regardless, and yet the last time I checked, it was the latter who came out of it alive. Yeah, I'm afraid that's bullshit. Marek did indeed recoil at the force of her opening salvo, but much like Ahsoka couldn't maintain her initial advantage against Vader in their duel, neither did Ti possess the stamina to do so here, instead for the vast majority of the bout they appear fight evenly, despite Ti possessing and abusing the terrain advantage, and having vast planetary reserves at her disposal. On the other hand even with a last-ditch suicidal attempt to overpower him, she failed to fully penetrate his defences.

Moreover after the fact Marek strength increased dramatically:

Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

THE APPRENTICE CROUCHED FACEDOWN in the snow, surrounded by rubble. His breath came in agonized, short gasps, but he was grateful for each one. He should be dead. That blow should have killed anyone. The fact that he was breathing testified to one mistake his Master had made. He had been rebuilt tougher than before.

Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

He whirled and leapt, filling the air with reflected energy. All thought ceased; his connection to the Force became deeper than it ever had been before.

Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

The troopers started firing before he had taken two paces toward them. They were dead long before he reached the door, killed by their own reflected fire. The Imperial Guard lasted barely as long, felled with four swift lightsaber strokes then shocked with lightning as he dropped backward to the ground. The apprentice' nodded, satisfied that his skills had improved since Nar Shaddaa.

Taken from The Force Unleashed novelisation

"I'm not wearing out," he said. "The moorings were tough, but I feel stronger than ever now. It gets easier, I think, the harder you try. The Force is stronger than anything we can imagine. We're the ones who limit it, not the other way around."

Or in other words, by the point of his mission to Felucia, Marek is already powerful enough to decisively beat Jinn, after growing far more powerful he would embarrass him, as would Vader by association.
Comparatively, Jinn could send shudders through Maul's body with his strikes.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
[...] another misreading, the source material states that "Our blows send shudders through my body", something that proves nothing more than the fact that basic physics are in play, not that they are close in physical ability, they are not.
👆

You completely dodged the Ben Kenobi comparison, and until you address that, you won't be getting any responses - i.e., me kicking your ass again. Till then I have little reason to assume that Failen is above ATOC Obi Wan as a duelist.

Edit : just saw the previous page. expect a response.

Wait. Who suggested Jinn > Felucia Galen?

Who do you think?

I mean. No. Just no.

Pray for his death, Syn, its all we can do. 🙂

I pray for everyone's death on KMC. 🙂

Mmm, probably for the best.

Making this quick.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Against Vader Ben was losing, decisively I might add.

Like many of the renowned events in Star Wars, Ben Kenobi vs Vader is covered by a number of sources that interpret, conjecture upon and reiterate the action viewed on-screen. There are also a few sources that comment on the fight, the Fightsaber article being one of them. Other than that, we have the New Hope Novel and the Death Star giving us an internal perspective of just what exactly is happening. Unsurprisingly, none of the literature describing the fight lines up with Beni's opinion. The Death Star Novel tells us the story from the thoughts of Vader, in which he believes to have the advantage, until Kenobi starts attacking back himself:

"He did not wish them to interfere, but to even warn them of would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye."

- The Death Star

"During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields."

- Source: Insider 62: Fightsaber

So no, winning decisively is not how this fight can be described when Vader admits that the slightest moment of wavered concentration will end up with his head on a platter. Then we have the objective source claiming that Vader couldn't break his guard to put Beni's personal interpretation to a long awaited sleep laden with barbiturates. For some, this is a pill too hard to swallow. They simply can not admit, or do not understand why Vader can't defeat a an out-of-practice Old man, because it comes with several ground realities that are too close to home and too close to the bone. Vader is not in his prime, the cybernetic replacements prevent the Force from flowing through his body correctly, he no longer has the potential of the chosen one, and finally, he's slow and rigid, two traits that severely hamper his ability to wield a weightless glow stick against other people with weightless glowsticks. With all that considered, it isn't too hard to believe why Ben Kenobi can compete with Vader. He was intended to be a shadow of his former self, and that's exactly what he is.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

But OL Ben is still Stronk! in The Life and Legend of Kenobi it's instead stated that Kenobi kept up his Jedi exercises:

"Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two light-sabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat."

- The Life and Legend of Obi Wan

The Life and Legend of Obi Wan is written two years after the events of Revenge of the Sith, it's specifically regarding Kenobi's engagement with Hett on Tatooine and therefor, has nor bearing on our little debate. On the contrary the sources mentioning Kenobi in A New Hope all note how out of practice he is, leading me to believe his skills are legitimately worse than Qui Gon Jinn's. He may still be a formidable Soresu practitioner, but please remember that this only produces a relative conviction and more importantly, folks like Coleman Trebor were credited with the same accolade.

Originally posted by Beniboybling


Qui-Gon was rendered a 30 second affair by the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices, logic dictates that the strongest would give him an even greater spanking.

Vader's performance against the resurrected Darth Maul - aka the weakest of Palpatine's apprentices demonstrates that Jinn would do pretty well against former, all considering. Nova gave me the quote confirming this is part of C-canon, so the validity of the source is no longer in question, Maul not wanting to fight Vader in Rebels can be explained by a decline in skill and given that the Disney show is still featured before A New Hope, the idea of a resurrection is still plausible. The comic features Vader getting slapped pretty hard, perhaps worse than Jinn did. So using Maul as a measuring stick Jinn might even win this battle.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Marek Does Not SUCK AT Duelling! He almost purfected Lightsabers and Vader not disarming him is an awesome feat!

Galen Marek does suck at duelling. For starters the almost part of perfecting - i.e mastering lightsaber combat, makes this a shit accolade. It simply means his level of skill is below Adi Gaila types. Now for his track record of fights, let's have a look at who he's duelled and what league they should be playing in.

Rham Kota - Prominent feats :

- Mastered Juyo? Possibly putting him on Vrook Lamar's level

Kazdan Paratus - Prominent feats :

....

Shaak ti - Prominent feats :

- Fought Grevious twice, lost instantly both times

- May or may not be amping her own power with her presence

- Out-duelling Galen Marek

Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek

Maris Brood - prominent feats :

...

So as we can see, fodder bemoans fodder... and on the original point, Galen's strength feats are all but non-existent. So where does he rest among the pantheon of duellists who haven't quite perfected lightsaber combat?

Galen is a solid ATOC Obi Wan leveler.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust

[b]Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek

[[/B]

Except the Shadow Guard didn't out-duel him. At best they fought back and forth with one another, but out-dueling no.

God I love it when people bring up that 'resurrection' fight. Vader got dominated but somehow they turn against Maul?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Galen Marek does suck at duelling. For starters the almost part of perfecting - i.e mastering lightsaber combat, makes this a shit accolade. It simply means his level of skill is below Adi Gaila types. Now for his track record of fights, let's have a look at who he's duelled and what league they should be playing in.

[b]Rham Kota - Prominent feats :

- Mastered Juyo? Possibly putting him on Vrook Lamar's level

Kazdan Paratus - Prominent feats :

....

Shaak ti - Prominent feats :

- Fought Grevious twice, lost instantly both times

- May or may not be amping her own power with her presence

- Out-duelling Galen Marek

Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek

Maris Brood - prominent feats :

...

So as we can see, fodder bemoans fodder... and on the original point, Galen's strength feats are all but non-existent. So where does he rest among the pantheon of duellists who haven't quite perfected lightsaber combat?

Galen is a solid ATOC Obi Wan leveler. [/B]

You just f*cked up. 🙂

Sorry Syndicate, what exactly places Galen on level with the creme de la creme of lightsaber duelists, such as Dooku, ROTS Kenobi, Anakin, Mace etc etc?

The answer is nothing by the way.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Galen Marek does suck at duelling. For starters the almost part of perfecting - i.e mastering lightsaber combat, makes this a shit accolade. It simply means his level of skill is below Adi Gaila types. Now for his track record of fights, let's have a look at who he's duelled and what league they should be playing in.

[b]Rham Kota - Prominent feats :

- Mastered Juyo? Possibly putting him on Vrook Lamar's level

Kazdan Paratus - Prominent feats :

....

Shaak ti - Prominent feats :

- Fought Grevious twice, lost instantly both times

- May or may not be amping her own power with her presence

- Out-duelling Galen Marek

Random Shadow Guard - prominent feats :

- Out-dueling Galen Marek

Maris Brood - prominent feats :

...

So as we can see, fodder bemoans fodder... and on the original point, Galen's strength feats are all but non-existent. So where does he rest among the pantheon of duellists who haven't quite perfected lightsaber combat?

Galen is a solid ATOC Obi Wan leveler. [/B]

There's a difference between mastery and perfection as can be plainly seen in Mace and Obi Wan's exchange in RotS.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?" "I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really—"
"Not a master. The master," Mace had said." - Revenge of the Sith.

If the quote is stating Galen has nearly perfected not just a single form but lightsaber combat itself that means there is very little left for him to expand his knowledge on in the realm of technical skill or practical application. That leaves us with the only other element of lightsaber comba not decided by external factors. Physicality. What is physicality decided by? Your base physiology and augmentation. What is augmentation decided by? Power in the Force. What area is Galen most renowned for having more evidence then nearly anyone in the mythos to back it up? I'll let you take a guess.

Mastered Juyo with a high degree of master in multiple other forms and was capable of disconnecting a control station from a TIE factory. Better then anything Obi Wan ever demonstrated and we know he was capable of dodging thousands of hypersonic blaster bolts with his augmentation.

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/kazdan-paratus-respect-thread-1799995/

Unfortunately i have to let you know that your context, is similar to your band of followers in that it does not exist. Given Shaak was exhausted in both encounters with Grievous I'm sure anybody with a brain can tell you why your first reason is literally cancer inducing.

She was doing so. This doesn't change the fact that she's apparently far more powerful then a being far more powerful then someone who could rip control stations from their factories.

With several external factors. Granted you have a point that such a feat ( if it existed ) could not be used to rank Galen as a lightsaber combatant. The fact that she grew in power up to TFU to the point she was at the level mentioned above and that she was amped by a DS nexus and had several other external factors aiding her in her fight with Galen when as of RotS she was stalemating dozens of elite magnaguards without any of those advantages is something you can definitely scale her off of. 🙂

This last one I won't ever address.

Try actually looking at the evidence presented before you make a fool of yourself Ziggy. It causes us all a little embarrassment knowing that we interact with someone actually as dumb as you.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
Sorry Syndicate, what exactly places Galen on level with the creme de la creme of lightsaber duelists, such as Dooku, ROTS Kenobi, Anakin, Mace etc etc?

His defeat of Vader of course who himself has stalemated 4 Jedi simultaneously, beaten Celeste Morne and survived against dozens of Jedi far before his prime. That's solely based off feats. Vader himself is logically a far more skilled duelist then he was at Anakin and he's confirmed to have grown more powerful meaning he is Anakin's superior in all areas bar agility.

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
The answer is nothing by the way.

You've fallen so low Ziggy. It's never too late to rise though as long as someone's willing to offer a helping hand. 🙂

Take it Ziggy. You know you want to. 🙂

So how do you explain Vader's stalemate of Ol Ben Kenobi and his spanking at the hands of Darth Maul in resurrection?

Originally posted by Ziggystardust
So how do you explain Vader's stalemate of Ol Ben Kenobi and his spanking at the hands of Darth Maul in resurrection?

The Resurrection comic was reconnected by TCW. If it hadn't been then we wouldn't have anything to scale Vader to as TPM Maul before TCW was simply an unknown combatant somewhere between Qui Gon Jinn and Sidious.

Taking TCW into account and applying it to the comic the doppleganger presented therein is a creation of Dark Acolytes who's capabilities are unknown. This was also before his prime as you're likely well aware.

Ben's status as a combatant is based solely on his performance against Vader meaning Vader can neither suffer nor be raised due to his fight against Kenobi. Kenobi decreased in skill of course but also increased in power meaning his performance is based on the extent of his power growth.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Jinn in a good fight.