Captain America vs Luke Cage

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Yes, but he didn't really exert himself. During the attacks on the safe houses he was walking the whole time, he never moved fast enough to push himself and I would assume he did the same thing when he swam - nobody was chasing him so he could take his time and conserve his energy. We never really see move Luke fast or with any sense of urgency that I can recall - he's always really careful to conserve his energy by walking and standing still, letting his opponents wear themselves out by attacking him until they get tired or run out of bullets.

Well, he did move with urgency when people were chasing him down with Judas bullets, as well as during his initial encounters with DB (including their first proper fight, when Luke had already taken a gut shot). Plus, I'd say the fact that he was still physically active for a significant amount after being shot by 2 Judas bullets shows some decent endurance.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, he did move with urgency when people were chasing him down with Judas bullets, as well as during his initial encounters with DB (including their first proper fight, when Luke had already taken a gut shot). Plus, I'd say the fact that he was still physically active for a significant amount after being shot by 2 Judas bullets shows some decent endurance.

Endurance, yes, he can take a helluva lot of punishment, but not stamina - he won't be able to duplicate Cap's feat of running at peak human speed for (can't remember exactly) an hour? Two? More? After he got hit by those Judas bullets he was staggering and DB was hurting him - if that had been Cap the fight would have been over. I'm picturing a scenario where Cap drops something very heavy on him (like he did with Spidey) and while Luke is recovering (like he did after the rocket collapsed the building on him) Cap could finish him off. Luke doesn't really have any long range attacks except throwing things which Cap can block or dodge, so he's already at a disadvantage.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Endurance, yes, he can take a helluva lot of punishment, but not stamina - he won't be able to duplicate Cap's feat of running at peak human speed for (can't remember exactly) an hour? Two? More? After he got hit by those Judas bullets he was staggering and DB was hurting him - if that had been Cap the fight would have been over. I'm picturing a scenario where Cap drops something very heavy on him (like he did with Spidey) and while Luke is recovering (like he did after the rocket collapsed the building on him) Cap could finish him off. Luke doesn't really have any long range attacks except throwing things which Cap can block or dodge, so he's already at a disadvantage.

It was 30 minutes that Cap was running in the beginning of TWS (13 miles in 30 minutes according to Sam). Besides, this is a fight, not a foot race. And yes, because when you have been shot with a large exploding bullet and you're bleeding all over the place, your body uses up a ton of energy just keeping you alive (the energy you'd normally be using for everyday activities). And he still got into multiple scuffles with DB, and took out those cops. So it is a feat of stamina as well. And it's not like Cap would have been in very good condition after taking a Judas to the gut, considering normal bullets have been shown to pierce him. I mean flip your scenario. Cap takes a Judas and then has to fight Cage. How does that go?

And those are some rather big ifs in that scenario. What is Cap going to be dropping on him here? You're assuming the setting has something like that for Cap to drop on him, and that Cage (who is much more experienced than MCU Spiderman at this point), would fall for the same tactics. Cottonmouth only managed to hit him with the rocket because he was not expecting it, and was sitting around, having a chat with that old Asian woman.

Originally posted by Dreampanther
Endurance, yes, he can take a helluva lot of punishment, but not stamina - he won't be able to duplicate Cap's feat of running at peak human speed for (can't remember exactly) an hour? Two? More? After he got hit by those Judas bullets he was staggering and DB was hurting him - if that had been Cap the fight would have been over. I'm picturing a scenario where Cap drops something very heavy on him (like he did with Spidey) and while Luke is recovering (like he did after the rocket collapsed the building on him) Cap could finish him off. Luke doesn't really have any long range attacks except throwing things which Cap can block or dodge, so he's already at a disadvantage.

So now we're working under the premise that Cap will "just have some heavy fall out Luke, and he'll have to deal with that and then Cap will close the show" I see.

So why couldn't I say, I envision a scenario where Cap tries to engage Cage h2h, but Cage's superior strength, durability and punching power get him the win?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Why are people acting like Luke is some noob fighter here? DD h2h feats and skill easily compare with Cap's, and likely surpass him if using both TV and Movie feats. Yet somehow Luke is unskilled?

I see comments stating that Luke is stronger. I can't recall feats that dictate that statement. I would think their strength is perhaps comparable.

Well, their highest end feats, the helicopter and the SUV, are in the same ballpark in terms of tonnage, based on calcs I have seen people attempt on various boards. Because a large SUV like the one Luke stopped can easily weigh about 2.5+ tons. And it was already going at a decent rate. Plus, based on the audio/the sound the car was making, the driver was stepping on the gas as he was baring down on Claire and her partner. So 2.5+ ton object under acceleration would work out to something similar to the chopper. But Luke did his feat with more ease than Cap held down the helicopter. Plus, he has better overall barefisted striking feats compared to Cap, like punching through concrete and steel.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, their highest end feats, the helicopter and the SUV, are in the same ballpark in terms of tonnage, based on calcs I have seen people attempt on various boards. Because a large SUV like the one Luke stopped can easily weigh about 2.5+ tons. And it was already going at a decent rate. Plus, based on the audio/the sound the car was making, the driver was stepping on the gas as he was baring down on Claire and her partner. So 2.5+ ton object under acceleration would work out to something similar to the chopper. But Luke did his feat with more ease than Cap held down the helicopter. Plus, he has better overall barefisted striking feats compared to Cap, like punching through concrete and steel.

I know JJ was not as strong as Luke. I think she needed two hands to keep one of his fist away from punching her. I think she would have to do the same against Capt.

Also, since Luke has shown the ability to be KOed by a powerful enough blow to the head I think Capt definitely has a chance to KO Luke.

Originally posted by Kotor3
A lot of assumptions there but fair enough. I can also see the chopper being a greater feat. Either way I don't see their strength being that far apart from each other.

I know JJ was not as strong as Luke. I think she needed two hands to keep one of his fist away from punching her. I think she would have to do the same against Capt.

Also, since Luke has shown the ability to be KOed by a powerful enough blow to the head I think Capt definitely has a chance to KO Luke.

So you think Cap could stop a speeding SUV dead in its tracks by shoulderchecking it? Because that's strength. Not durability. Durability is not getting hurt while doing it. And what about Luke's better fist striking feats?

And Jessica herself stopped a slower moving taxi early in her own series, with one hand, IIRC.

And let's not pretend any hard blow to the head can KO Luke. Jessica rammed his head through a brick wall and it barely slowed him down. DB also landed several headshots. The two instances Luke got KO'd were very specific. Once when he literally got hit by a rocket, and then had tons of rubble drop on him. And the second time was when someone pressed a 12-gauge shotgun behind his chin bone, basically aiming it directly at his brain stem, and pulled the trigger. And Luke was trying to resist Kilgrave's control at the time, and even stopped himself long enough to tell Jessica to "do what you gotta do", at which point she shot him. He's not going to be trying to hold himself back and waiting for Cap to clock him.

I can see him wearing him down with the shield, but not with just his fists.

I think Luke is stronger and more durable than Cap. Cap was never meant to be the powerhouse that guys like Luke Cage are supposed to be.

But Cap has a more enhanced physicality, meaning not only is his strength enhanced but also his speed, reflexes, stamina, agility, etc. And in these, he has the advantage.

So while Luke has the edge in pure strength and durability, Cap has the edge in everything else.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
So you think Cap could stop a speeding SUV dead in its tracks by shoulderchecking it? Because that's strength. Not durability. Durability is not getting hurt while doing it.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And what about Luke's better fist striking feats?

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And Jessica herself stopped a slower moving taxi early in her own series, with one hand, IIRC.
And let's not pretend any hard blow to the head can KO Luke. Jessica rammed his head through a brick wall and it barely slowed him down. DB also landed several headshots. The two instances Luke got KO'd were very specific. Once when he literally got hit by a rocket, and then had tons of rubble drop on him. And the second time was when someone pressed a 12-gauge shotgun behind his chin bone, basically aiming it directly at his brain stem, and pulled the trigger. And Luke was trying to resist Kilgrave's control at the time, and even stopped himself long enough to tell Jessica to "do what you gotta do", at which point she shot him. He's not going to be trying to hold himself back and waiting for Cap to clock him.
I can see him wearing him down with the shield, but not with just his fists.

Cap doesn't have the damage output to KO him

Originally posted by carthage
Cap doesn't have the damage output to KO him

Not without his shield, I agree. However, I'm curious if he's able to dislocate limbs and stuff like he did to WS.

@ Kotor. For some reason, quoting is wack for me now.

Firstly, that is not how physics operates. Durability wouldn't help in standing your ground. It would help you in remaining uninjured as you were sent flying. Cap has been sent flying by RPGs/tank shells on more than one occasion, despite even having his shield to block. Winter Soldier pushing him with just his metal arm was great enough to smash him through metal elevator doors, and Steve was braced and pushing back with both arms.

Luke jumped out of a 5th story window, landed on his feet without any issues whatsoever (cratering the ground), and took off running. When Cap jumps from those kinds of heights, he usually has to tuck into a roll to absorb some of the impact.

It was not just his bare hands. It was his fists and shield strikes. And his fists were doing superficial damage at best. And all Friday told him was that he couldn't best Steve in H2H. Up until Cap drove the shield into the arc reactor, the only damage of note he had done to Tony's suit was the busted flight repulsor, and he did that with his shield.

So let me ask you this. Do you actually think Cap could put Tony's suit out of commission with just his fists?

Originally posted by carthage
Cap doesn't have the damage output to KO him

Fight scene between Capt and Ironman shows he does. Capt didn't just used his shield he used his bare fist plenty. Capt also as well as WS took direct hits in the face (multiple) from Ironman. If Capt and punch ironman's armor and back his his bare and cause damage he definitely can KO Luke with multiple hits.

That's not saying much. Like I said, the damage was superficial at best. The only notable damage came from the shield and Bucky's arm. In Civil War, even Redwing flying into Tony managed to damage his suit.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
@ Kotor. For some reason, quoting is wack for me now.

Firstly, that is not how physics operates. Durability wouldn't help in standing your ground. It would help you in remaining uninjured as you were sent flying. Cap has been sent flying by RPGs/tank shells on more than one occasion, despite even having his shield to block. Winter Soldier pushing him with just his metal arm was great enough to smash him through metal elevator doors, and Steve was braced and pushing back with both arms.

Luke jumped out of a 5th story window, landed on his feet without any issues whatsoever (cratering the ground), and took off running. When Cap jumps from those kinds of heights, he usually has to tuck into a roll to absorb some of the impact.

It was not just his bare hands. It was his fists and shield strikes. And his fists were doing superficial damage at best. And all Friday told him was that he couldn't best Steve in H2H. Up until Cap drove the shield into the arc reactor, the only damage of note he had done to Tony's suit was the busted flight repulsor, and he did that with his shield.

So let me ask you this. Do you actually think Cap could put Tony's suit out of commission with just his fists?

No, I do not believe that Capt would put Tony's suit out of commission with his bare fist. Second point, Capt was targeting the head of IronMan. I do not see Luke Cage's skin as more durable than Tony's suit. Also, as shown Luke can be KOed by a force stronger enough to his head. I did not say one hit from Capt but multiple could do so.

Also, Capt was taking direct hits to the face from Ironman and did not move. So Capt can take a lot also.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
That's not saying much. Like I said, the damage was superficial at best. The only notable damage came from the shield and Bucky's arm. In Civil War, even Redwing flying into Tony managed to damage his suit.

I think Capt has a chance of winning.

Cap's faster, more agile and a much, much, much better fighter, but Cap's not punching out someone who took a shotgun blast to the chin and survived, then took an exploding round inside his abdomen.

Give Cap his shield, he might be able to KO Cage with enough blows to the head/face.

@ Kotor - Well, you seem to be in a minority here, as most people seem to agree Cap would need his shield in order to KO Luke.

The joint thing is up for debate, IMO. Even if possible, I think it would be a lot easier said than done.