The context being that the Watcher who Exitar was sent [by Arishem] to destroy first, wasn't just any Watcher -- he was 'The One'. Not that it makes it any better that Exitar had to amp for thousands of years before confronting the race... But at least he one-shotted The One, which means he could have dealt with the rest of the race with a far greater degree of ease. /shrug
The One's very existence was a threat to the cosmic balance of power -- that's why Arishem judged against him in the first place.
Remember, The One was designed to survive the death of the universe in order to pass his knowledge on to the next reality. However, he began intentionally speeding-up the death of the universe so that he could fulfill his role sooner... Which is what ultimately forced the Celestials' hand. By all implications, The One was > the rest of the race, imo.
...But that's neither here nor there, and WAY off-topic.
RK Thor laughs in their face. They don't have anything that would actually hurt him. This makes them less than zero to him, because he represents a greater force than they are, he essentially became the Avatar of the Almighty. If that entity/spirit, etc, took physical form in the physical universe. Not sure why people aren't able to see that RK Thor pierced the veil? Physical matters had no meaning to him. Physical universal effects no longer applied to him. It would be like shooting something that you could see, but that wasn't even really there, while being able to apply omniscient force equal to omnipotent might in the physical universe. They'd be wiped out quickly by an omniscient.
Galan, you still don't get it. They would have no power over him whatsoever. None. He would wipe them out in an instant. All that you mentioned was so far beneath the power that he represents that this isn't really an argument worth going into. They would lose to an omniscient being of his stature. Omniscient means what to you? RK Thor's power, did not come from the physical universe. When that power came into the physical universe, it displayed omnipotent might due to having the ability of applying omniscient power which comes up to the exact same thing in the physical universe. Being extra-planar, meant that the very laws of the physical universe did not apply to him, thus only a law that existed in his plane of existence would ever apply to him. Virtually immune to anything that these guys could throw at him. I mean, what are they going to do, kill him? Death meant nothing to him, he was beyond them... This is why RK Thor shouldn't even be brought up in threads.
Originally posted by Galan007
Frankly, that is absolutely ridiculous. I am certainly not going to entertain such a flagrant/illogical no-limits fallacy being applied to RKT.Someone else might, though, so have fun with that. 👆
You don't have to, but there it is all the same. Omniscient. Greater than the entire Celestial race.
Originally posted by Galan007
You're going WAY too far with RKT. Is he > Odin? Sure. That much was at least implied in the story.Is he > Odin + The Odinsword + Destroyer + the souls of EVERY Asgardian + power from EVERY Pantheon? Certainly not. You'd have to apply a MASSIVE no-limits fallacy to reach that conclusion. srsly
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.
Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.
Cheers.
Originally posted by LGU
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.
Cheers.
The entire premise was that he went beyond Odin.
I don't see how you could think otherwise.
Originally posted by LGU
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.
Cheers.
What's greater, Omnipotent might, or Omniscient power? Does Odin appear to have that kind of might? Having Omniscience, means that you can apply Omnipotent might to it's fullest without end, because no end was given. RK Thor didn't have to make or show huge displays of power, because what was implied was that he had almighty power within the physical universe. He knew everything about everything. You can't even begin to compare a gnat or less like Odin to RK Thor. Wow.
Originally posted by LGUI believe the implication was that RKT had transcended Odin to *some* extent. But like you said: I do not believe the power differential between them was overly significant... And I am certainly not of the opinion that he had become this Supreme Being-esque hyper-God, as Stoic seems to believe.
Personally I think it's pretty ambiguous as to whether Thor was more powerful than Odin at all. It's a possibility certainly, but I don't think it's a given based on what is presented in the story, and I certainly don't think it would be a big gap if there is a power differential.Again and again and again throughout that arc we are told explicitly that Thor's ability to "beat" TWSAIS and end the cycle was down to his humanity, which made him impossible for TWSAIS to predict. It had little or nothing to do with raw power.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Stoic
What's greater, Omnipotent might, or Omniscient power? Does Odin appear to have that kind of might? Having Omniscience, means that you can apply Omnipotent might to it's fullest without end, because no end was given. RK Thor didn't have to make or show huge displays of power, because what was implied was that he had almighty power within the physical universe. He knew everything about everything. You can't even begin to compare a gnat or less like Odin to RK Thor. Wow.
Originally posted by krisblaze
The entire premise was that he went beyond Odin.I don't see how you could think otherwise.
It actually isn't, although I can understand why people read it that it's nowhere near that clear-cut.
I don't have time to spell it out at the moment as I have to log off in a second, but I went over this argument in a fair bit of detail here:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=6203.msg121505#msg121505
I've mellowed my position somewhat since then - I don't think that there is *no* evidence to suggest that he was more powerful than Odin, which is what I argue there. But I do think the evidence is ambiguous at best, and there is certainly no evidence of a massive power differential.
The TL;DR version:
- Thor sacrificed more than Odin, true. But it isn't true that Thor gained greater benefits because of his greater sacrifices. It's actually repeatedly stated that Thor had to sacrifice more to gain the same as Odin because a repeated (identical) sacrifice is meaningless.
- it is never, anywhere in the text, implied that Thor's ability to overcome TWSAIS was down to raw power. It is repeatedly and very explicitly explained to us that it was due to his humanity making him unpredictable, disguising his intentions from them until it was too late. In other words, the key variable wasn't Thor being more powerful than Odin, it was Thor's experiences on Earth living amongst mortals. Any power increase (if it did exist) was not relevant to Thor's "defeat" of TWSAIS.
Cheers.
Originally posted by Stoic
What's greater, Omnipotent might, or Omniscient power? Does Odin appear to have that kind of might? Having Omniscience, means that you can apply Omnipotent might to it's fullest without end, because no end was given. RK Thor didn't have to make or show huge displays of power, because what was implied was that he had almighty power within the physical universe. He knew everything about everything. You can't even begin to compare a gnat or less like Odin to RK Thor. Wow.
The story makes it pretty clear that Thor receives the exact same level of wisdom and knowledge that Odin had always possessed. The knowledge of the runes etc was not unique to Thor.
The story repeatedly tells us that the key variable between Odin and Thor's ability to confront TWSAIS was his humanity, making him impossible to predict.
It's also worth pointing out that putting Thor amongst mortals with this exact end-game in mind was *Odin's* plan all along; Thor was actually just a part of Odin's grand strategy to end the cycle.
Anyway, I have to go to bed now. In my experience this position is often extremely unpopular on battleboards, and judging by the massive overrating of RKT in this thread I expect that to be no different here. I'll happily continue to debate these points tomorrow, but I'm out for now.
Cheers.
Odin is less than nothing to RK Thor. Your entire argument became flawed when you left out the fact that Odin has never even approached omniscient status in his entire history. I think that you may not be understanding the true meaning of what omniscience means? Maybe I'm seeing it in a different definition than you are? Who knows. I saw no room for hyperbole when I read the story, but whatever. And that's really what it comes down to, you either follow what is written, or you do something else.
Originally posted by LGU
It actually isn't, although I can understand why people read it that it's nowhere near that clear-cut.I don't have time to spell it out at the moment as I have to log off in a second, but I went over this argument in a fair bit of detail here:
http://herochat.com/index.php?topic=6203.msg121505#msg121505
I've mellowed my position somewhat since then - I don't think that there is *no* evidence to suggest that he was more powerful than Odin, which is what I argue there. But I do think the evidence is ambiguous at best, and there is certainly no evidence of a massive power differential.
The TL;DR version:
- Thor sacrificed more than Odin, true. But it isn't true that Thor gained greater benefits because of his greater sacrifices. It's actually repeatedly stated that Thor had to sacrifice more to gain the same as Odin because a repeated (identical) sacrifice is meaningless.
- it is never, anywhere in the text, implied that Thor's ability to overcome TWSAIS was down to raw power. It is repeatedly and very explicitly explained to us that it was due to his humanity making him unpredictable, disguising his intentions from them until it was too late. In other words, the key variable wasn't Thor being more powerful than Odin, it was Thor's experiences on Earth living amongst mortals. Any power increase (if it did exist) was not relevant to Thor's "defeat" of TWSAIS.
Cheers.
Our interpretations aren't mutually exclusive.