Originally posted by Beniboybling
Outmatched has a clear dictionary definition: to be superior. And if Sids is the one overwhelming Yoda, it hardly works both ways. So I don't feel as if that reading really works.
Yeah but what did Sidious outmatch/overhwelm Yoda in?
Wasn't Sabers going by the evidence. Many people say the Force, but the Force explosion sent them both back, much like the Anakin/Obi-Wan force push.
Was Yoda outmatched in Stamina? Possibly, but if that was really the case why was Sidious hanging off a pod, and not pursuing Yoda.
The only thing Sidious seemed to have Yoda outmatched in was Positioning. Yoda took the worse fall after the Force explosion due to that, but again, why didn't Sidious pursue Yoda?
So all these statements of Sidious pushing Yoda's shit really aren't backed up by anything except the fact that Sidious came out on top due to having the major advantage of just needing to survive this assassination attempt to continue his rule.
This statement of fighting to a standstill but that being enough for a Palpatine victory however, is backed by the onscreen evidence.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Forget trying to reconcile sources. Go by the film: They fought to a standstill but Palpatine was the victor due to the circumstances.But if you really must reconcile: Yoda was "outmatched," because he needed to kill Palpatine but couldn't do it. They were both "overhwelmed" by the final blast. And obviously Palpatine was the "victor" given he survived and carried on ruling his Empire, whereas Yoda had to flee into hiding.
This. Palpatine had the highr ground, since Yoda was forced to chase him all the time. Palpatine tried to run after he got Force pushed by Yoda. And in the last sequence, It seems that Yoda had very small edge.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
The only thing Sidious seemed to have Yoda outmatched in was Positioning.
Originally posted by Darth ThorOutmatched in Force friend, lets not beat around the bush, the source material expressly states that his lightning overwhelmed him.
Yeah but what did Sidious outmatch/overhwelm Yoda in?Wasn't Sabers going by the evidence. Many people say the Force, but the Force explosion sent them both back, much like the Anakin/Obi-Wan force push.
Was Yoda outmatched in Stamina? Possibly, but if that was really the case why was Sidious hanging off a pod, and not pursuing Yoda.
The only thing Sidious seemed to have Yoda outmatched in was Positioning. Yoda took the worse fall after the Force explosion due to that, but again, why didn't Sidious pursue Yoda?
So all these statements of Sidious pushing Yoda's shit really aren't backed up by anything except the fact that Sidious came out on top due to having the major advantage of just needing to survive this assassination attempt to continue his rule.
This statement of fighting to a standstill but that being enough for a Palpatine victory however, is backed by the onscreen evidence.
And Sidious 'won' because he didn't fall off the pod, whereas Yoda did and failed to break his fall, conceding the high ground and therefore the fight. The fact that Yoda was completely unable to break his fall only suggesting that he was utterly exhausted, and in no position to continue fighting. So one might arguably concede stamina to Palpatine as well.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Outmatched in Force friend, lets not beat around the bush, the source material expressly states that his lightning overwhelmed him.
Sources are contradictory on the result of the fight, which was the whole point of this thread right? But the actual film shows them both flying after the Force explosion.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And Sidious 'won' because he didn't fall off the pod, whereas Yoda did and failed to break his fall, conceding the high ground and therefore the fight. The fact that Yoda was completely unable to break his fall only suggesting that he was utterly exhausted, and in no position to continue fighting. So one might arguably concede stamina to Palpatine as well.
Could that be because Yoda had nothing to grab hold of? (also shown in the film) IOW Yoda took the fall because he got unlucky.
Like I keep saying, it's not like Palpatine was pursuing Yoda. He was just left hanging himself, and later orders his troops to pursue Yoda.
Originally posted by Darth ThorI don't think that necessarily the case, for reasons explained. And the fact that they both were blown away doesn't preclude Sidious overwhelming him.
Sources are contradictory on the result of the fight, which was the whole point of this thread right? But the actual film shows them both flying after the Force explosion.
Could that be because Yoda had nothing to grab hold of? (also shown in the film) IOW Yoda took the fall because he got unlucky.It's speculation that Sidious would have fared as worse, but Yoda was evidently pooped, not just unlucky.Like I keep saying, it's not like Palpatine was pursuing Yoda. He was just left hanging himself, and later orders his troops to pursue Yoda.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't think that necessarily the case, for reasons explained. And the fact that they both were blown away doesn't preclude Sidious overwhelming him.
It's hardly an overwhelming when both are blown away.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It's speculation that Sidious would have fared as worse, but Yoda was evidently pooped, not just unlucky.
Don't see how. Sidious had something to grab hold of. Yoda didn't.
You could argue Sidious having better positioning by choice. But that just means Sidious gained the tactical advantage, not that he was more powerful in the Force, or as a Saber duelist.
Again though, the fight didn't end with Sidious chasing Yoda, or Sidious pounding on Yoda, and Yoda running for his life to avoid more of a pounding.
Originally posted by Darth ThorIt is in the respect that Yoda attempted to but failed to contain and deflect Sidious' lightning (which he was also unable to absorb) - Sheev was just hit by the rebound.
It's hardly an overwhelming when both are blown away.
Don't see how. Sidious had something to grab hold of. Yoda didn't.Because if he wasn't exhausted he would have 1. Broken his fall 2. Not lost his grip when he did grab hold of something. You realise Yoda should be able to do these things, yes?
You could argue Sidious having better positioning by choice. But that just means Sidious gained the tactical advantage, not that he was more powerful in the Force, or as a Saber duelist.That doesn't conflate with Yoda being outmatched or overwhelmed tbh, especially when in both cases this is framed within the contexts of a contest of the Force.
Again though, the fight didn't end with Sidious chasing Yoda, or Sidious pounding on Yoda, and Yoda running for his life to avoid more of a pounding.Yeah it ended in a "standstill", that doesn't mean Yoda wasn't outmatched. Arguably, that was one of the reasons he retreated. As the RotS describes it he "just didn't have it." Whereas Sidious didn't pursue because as you point out he didn't need to.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
It is in the respect that Yoda attempted to but failed to contain and deflect Sidious' lightning (which he was also unable to absorb) - Sheev was just hit by the rebound.
Huh? It rebounded onto him. Right after Yoda started to push Palpatine back mind you. I have no idea how anyone can see that as Palpatine overpowering Yoda.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because if he wasn't exhausted he would have 1. Broken his fall 2. Not lost his grip when he did grab hold of something. You realise Yoda should be able to do these things, yes?
And you realise under normal circumstances Sidious wouldn't just be hanging off a pole like a monkey right? Because he is capable of just leaping right back up into a fighting stance. Normally that is..
Originally posted by Beniboybling
That doesn't conflate with Yoda being outmatched or overwhelmed tbh, especially when in both cases this is framed within the contexts of a contest of the Force.Yeah it ended in a "standstill", that doesn't mean Yoda wasn't outmatched. Arguably, that was one of the reasons he retreated. As the RotS describes it he "just didn't have it." Whereas Sidious didn't pursue because as you point out he didn't need to.
You seem dead set on believing this statement that Yoda was overwhelmed by Palpatine's powers.
The top 10 ihgtsaber battles on SW.COM says Yoda absorbed all the Lightning Palpatine threw at him. There's different interpretations on ow the fight went, but end result was, neither of them were badly injured, but neither of them wanted to carry on either.
Sidious might not have "needed" to pursue Yoda, but he certainly wanted to. Hence he ordered his troops to find him. Yoda was like the biggest threat out there to Palpatine. If Palpatine really pushed Yoda's shit in as you're claiming, then of course he would have pursued him.
Because like you pointed out, under normal circumstances, either Yoda or Palpatine, could jump down to the bottom of that chamber, and pursue in no time.