Rage Luke (ROTJ) vs Obiwan (ROTS)

Originally posted by The Ellimist
You're really suggesting that if Vader just had some forewarning, he could've won that?

The fight in TFU was close, and it isn't clear if Vader grew more powerful by TFUII, or if the Starkiller clone is weaker. Regardless, you're basically dismissing a very clear showing on rage Luke's part - his only showing for that matter - because it could just be the product of Vader being caught off guard. You could do that with anything.

It's a matter of Luke's power in the Force making Vader stumble around even when Luke isn't touching him; it's not a question of bladework or Obi Wan's soresu.

Of course it'd be different if Vader expected that level of power. He was taken by surprise by the power of Luke's rage.

And what Anakin didn't have greater power in the Force than Obi-Wan? Lol None of that Luke/Vader fight is relevant to Luke getting past Kenobi's perfect Soresu defence.

ROTS Anakin couldn't who had potential =/> Luke, but who was also 3 years post completion of his training. So unlikely Padawan Luke will whale through him.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You really want me to get statements out? Because I'm being much kinder than Lucas's commentary. And let's not even think about Filoni's.

Go ahead.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Of course it'd be different if Vader expected that level of power. He was taken by surprise by the power of Luke's rage.

He was so thoroughly outmatched that there's no reason to think some better forewarning would've changed anything. It's not like Luke got a cheap shot in; he was consistently dominating Vader over an extended period of time, to the point where Vader could barely stand straight.

And what Anakin didn't have greater power in the Force than Obi-Wan? Lol None of that Luke/Vader fight is relevant to Luke getting past Kenobi's perfect Soresu defence.

Kenobi won't be able to put up any soresu defense when he's being overwhelmed with that kind of Force power. Vader is stumbling around and barely able to put one arm up to defend himself.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was so thoroughly outmatched that there's no reason to think some better forewarning would've changed anything. It's not like Luke got a cheap shot in; he was consistently dominating Vader over an extended period of time, to the point where Vader could barely stand straight.

Kenobi won't be able to put up any soresu defense when he's being overwhelmed with that kind of Force power. Vader is stumbling around and barely able to put one arm up to defend himself.

The initial attack put Vader on the defensive and began to stagger him so you don't know that.

What level of power? Quantify for me how it was a more powerful attack than ROTS Anakin's.

Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Go ahead.

Okay. You asked for it. Will post it when I'm in my computer.

I expect your confirmation of ROTJ Luke -> ROTS Anakin in return.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The initial attack put Vader on the defensive and began to stagger him so you don't know that.

He was staggering even when Luke wasn't touching him and was literally swinging wildly at the air. If your alternative explanation is that Luke's blows were so powerful that they caused Vader to strut around randomly for several seconds after contact, it doesn't really help your case.

What level of power? Quantify for me how it was a more powerful attack than ROTS Anakin's.

I think it's safe to say that Darth Vader is stronger in the Force than Obi Wan, and yet Vader couldn't even properly hold his lightsaber against Luke's presence, while Obi Wan fended off Anakin's pretty well.

@ Nova:

Originally posted by Darth Thor
According to Lucas, Luke is not a match for Vader as of ROTJ:

"In coming back to see Yoda we have to figure out Luke's training and the fact that he never finished his training and obviously now he's got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left on his own 2 feet without anyone there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place for something, but at some point you have to say now all the props have been taken away and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case the scene established that the evil monster is actually his Father, and he's going to have to do it on his own, and that he's not really equipped to do it. He was too impatient, he didn't finish his studies, and now he's going to be HALF Trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge.

George Lucas, Return of the Jedi Audio Commentary.

Luke beats his arms off

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was staggering even when Luke wasn't touching him and was literally swinging wildly at the air. If your alternative explanation is that Luke's blows were so powerful that they caused Vader to strut around randomly for several seconds after contact, it doesn't really help your case.

I think it's safe to say that Darth Vader is stronger in the Force than Obi Wan, and yet Vader couldn't even properly hold his lightsaber against Luke's presence, while Obi Wan fended off Anakin's pretty well.

Okay, so now you're going by bad choreography? Yes please explain how Luke was too powerful for Vader by swinging in the air..

I think it's safe to say ROTS Anakin is way stronger in the Force than Obi-Wan.

So again how is the Luke/Vader Father/Son fight at all relevant to ROTS Obi-Wan. Neither of you 2 have yet to provide any evidence that Luke's attack would be stronger than Anakin's. Not have you provided any sound logic for anyone to think that.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
@ Nova:

Cool. You just twisted a quote to suit your agenda.

What it actually says is Luke isn't equipped to defeat Vader. But we know from actual events he does anyways which makes the feat all the more impressive.

This is him before becoming enraged.

This is him after.

"He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.

Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.

The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist.

The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft below, without a trace." - Return of the Jedi.

Glad we could sort this out.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Okay, so now you're going by bad choreography? Yes please explain how Luke was too powerful for Vader by swinging in the air..

If you want to look at creator's intent, do you think the intent of that scene was to show that Luke was much weaker than Vader even when enraged and just got lucky because Vader was overconfident or something?

I think it's safe to say ROTS Anakin is way stronger in the Force than Obi-Wan.

His inhibited Mustafar self is not to the same margin that rage! Luke was beyond Vader.

So again how is the Luke/Vader Father/Son fight at all relevant to ROTS Obi-Wan. Neither of you 2 have yet to provide any evidence that Luke's attack would be stronger than Anakin's. Not have you provided any sound logic for anyone to think that.

Vader is far more powerful than Obi Wan, and lost resoundingly to Luke.

What an idiot

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Doubt it.

If Mustafar Anakin couldn't get past Obi-Wan's defenses, I don't see Luke doing it at this early point in his Jedi career.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2

Why not? Mustafar Anakin was hindered to the point he couldn't overwhelm Obi Wan with TK and Luke overwhelmed Vader in a rage state.

Luke dies..look what happened to his old man when he tried to rage out on Obi Wan....

lol so people really think Obi Wan > Rage! RotJ Luke >>>>>> Vader?

Originally posted by The Ellimist
He was so thoroughly outmatched that there's no reason to think some better forewarning would've changed anything. It's not like Luke got a cheap shot in; he was consistently dominating Vader over an extended period of time, to the point where Vader could barely stand straight.

Kenobi won't be able to put up any soresu defense when he's being overwhelmed with that kind of Force power. Vader is stumbling around and barely able to put one arm up to defend himself.

D. Thor is a Vader fanboy unable to cope with reality. It can be so cruel at times to the Vader faithful.

and to clear this up, Vader was much stronger than OLD Obi Wan; guaranteed you put ANH Vader up against ROTS Obi Wan its a much better fight that goes in Kenobi favour.

Also Vader wasnt ever trying to kill Luke or fight him 100% in ROTJ; he was trying to turn him, he was also conflicted about fighting Luke in the first place, or did you all miss that line in the film where Luke basically says that verbatim?

Originally posted by relentless1
and to clear this up, Vader was much stronger than OLD Obi Wan; guaranteed you put ANH Vader up against ROTS Obi Wan its a much better fight that goes in Kenobi favour.

Also Vader wasnt ever trying to kill Luke or fight him 100% in ROTJ; he was trying to turn him, he was also conflicted about fighting Luke in the first place, or did you all miss that line in the film where Luke basically says that verbatim?

Prove it. Prove RotS Obi Wan was superior to Old Ben. Because it's confirmed he grew more powerful even though logically his other attributes atrophied. I'd say the only way to rank him as a combatant would be based off his performance against Vader and if that's the case you can't use Old Ben as a measuring stick for how RotS Obi Wan would do against Vader.

Did you miss the line in the novel where Vader states he's perfectly willing to kill Luke?

Originally posted by relentless1
and to clear this up, Vader was much stronger than OLD Obi Wan; guaranteed you put ANH Vader up against ROTS Obi Wan its a much better fight that goes in Kenobi favour.

Also Vader wasnt ever trying to kill Luke or fight him 100% in ROTJ; he was trying to turn him, he was also conflicted about fighting Luke in the first place, or did you all miss that line in the film where Luke basically says that verbatim?