Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Prove it. Prove RotS Obi Wan was superior to Old Ben. Because it's confirmed he grew more powerful even though logically his other attributes atrophied. I'd say the only way to rank him as a combatant would be based off his performance against Vader and if that's the case you can't use Old Ben as a measuring stick for how RotS Obi Wan would do against Vader.Did you miss the line in the novel where Vader states he's perfectly willing to kill Luke?
just look at the way old ben moves compared to Obi Wan, and Vader even says point blank "your powers are weak old man" its right there in black and white
also novels don't count when they are contradicted by the films themselves; Luke calls Vader out for being conflicted and even the Emperor does earlier when Vader senses his son. In fact the whole film has scenes in it showing Vader unwilling to fight his son, the scene where he finds out Luke made his own lightsaber for instance... "its...too late for me son"...watch the films, its all there.
Originally posted by quanchi112
And Luke wasn't conflicted about fighting his dad ? You're an idiot.
lol, watch ROTJ again anal bead; Luke is trying and is angry when he does due to the goading of the Emperor; when he kicks Vader down the stairs he had struck out at the Emperor in anger...when he bests Vader in that exchange the Emperor points out that it is his anger giving him that power... Is it really that hard to understand your dimwit?
^ Old Ben might be more powerful in his mastery of TK and as a result might be a more powerful overall combatant, and yet still might be a bit rusty in Saber skill.
Vader's most potent power is also his TK. Which is why this whole Luke > Vader > Obi-Wan faulty ABC logic doesn't work. But it will all be in my response to Nova and Ellimist hopefully tomorrow.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Cool. You just twisted a quote to suit your agenda.
Twisted it? Dude all I did was quote it..
And all I said was I'm much kinder to ROTJ Luke than Lucas is, which is quite clear from my comments on this thread and from Lucas's that I quoted.
As for my Agenda, I've only slightly lowered my opinion of ROTJ Luke AFTER hearing this commentary.
So I'd keep conspiracies about Agenda's out of a simple debate concerning the level Luke was at as of ROTJ.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What it actually says is Luke isn't equipped to defeat Vader. But we know from actual events he does anyways which makes the feat all the more impressive.
If he's not equipped to it, then he can't do it without some kind of extenuating cricumstances, e.g. Vader is holding back, or Luke is amped. Simple as.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
This is him before becoming enraged.This is him after.
"He rushed to his father with a frenzy he'd never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke's. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an over-hanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.
Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat - back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke's saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.
The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught - and Luke slashed Vader's right hand off at the wrist.
The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft below, without a trace." - Return of the Jedi.
Glad we could sort this out.
Yes I have seen ROTJ. I do know Luke beat Vader in a Saber fight.
In terms of your sources, they are outdated even for Legends. Given they were all made Pre-Pequels. The ROTJ Novel for instance has Owen being Obi-Wan's brother.
However what I provided for you was a much more updated Creator commentary.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
If you want to look at creator's intent, do you think the intent of that scene was to show that Luke was much weaker than Vader even when enraged and just got lucky because Vader was overconfident or something?
I mean I've already posted creator intent on regular ROTJ Luke.
Him overpowering a conflicted Vader in a Rage Amp doesn't mean he'd necessarily get past the defenses of the Master of Defensive technique. One who deflected all the rage induced attacks of ROTS Skywalker.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
His inhibited Mustafar self is not to the same margin that rage! Luke was beyond Vader.
Stretching what happened a bit. The more precise explanation would be that Luke in his rage amp was beyond a conflicted Vader in a Saber only battle.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Vader is far more powerful than Obi Wan, and lost resoundingly to Luke.
Vader never utilized TK (his most potent weapon) on ROTJ Luke. So this A>B>C argument won't work.
ROTJ Luke didn't even seem able to TK the scout troopers he was chasing on Endor and as per Lucas was not properly equipped to defeat Vader in an all out.
And it's nothing against Luke. No newly trained Knight could be fully equipped to take down Vader. Remember TCW Anakin going up against Dooku? He was doing fine in Sabers, but was outmatched in TK.
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Twisted it? Dude all I did was quote it..And all I said was I'm much kinder to ROTJ Luke than Lucas is, which is quite clear from my comments on this thread and from Lucas's that I quoted.
As for my Agenda, I've only slightly lowered my opinion of ROTJ Luke AFTER hearing this commentary.
So I'd keep conspiracies about Agenda's out of a simple debate concerning the level Luke was at as of ROTJ.
If he's not equipped to it, then he can't do it without some kind of extenuating cricumstances, e.g. Vader is holding back, or Luke is amped. Simple as.
Yes I have seen ROTJ. I do know Luke beat Vader in a Saber fight.
In terms of your sources, they are outdated even for Legends. Given they were all made Pre-Pequels. The ROTJ Novel for instance has Owen being Obi-Wan's brother.
However what I provided for you was a much more updated Creator commentary.
What this boils down to it seems is your interpretation of the quote "not equipped."
I see that as saying if Luke was a normal Force user he would not be able to defeat Vaser but because he's not, because he has the potential of the Chosen One, he is able to defeat his father due to his own enormous ability. This is confirmed in the novel itself where it praises Luke for his unparalleled technique and by Lucas's commentary on Luke's potential.
If you want though think of it like this. Luke could have been overwhelmed and kill by Vader's force abilities but Vader did not employ them against him because while he was willing to kill him he wanted to turn him first and foremost which is why he went all out on him in a duel but did not employ TK. Perhaps that's what the quotes referring to if we're going by your interpretation.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
What this boils down to it seems is your interpretation of the quote "not equipped."I see that as saying if Luke was a normal Force user he would not be able to defeat Vaser but because he's not, because he has the potential of the Chosen One, he is able to defeat his father due to his own enormous ability. This is confirmed in the novel itself where it praises Luke for his unparalleled technique and by Lucas's commentary on Luke's potential.
Agree to disagree that's what Lucas meant. To me not being fully equipped would account for his level of training + raw power/potential up to that point.
Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
If you want though think of it like this. Luke could have been overwhelmed and kill by Vader's force abilities but Vader did not employ them against him because while he was willing to kill him he wanted to turn him first and foremost which is why he went all out on him in a duel but did not employ TK. Perhaps that's what the quotes referring to if we're going by your interpretation.
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Originally posted by UCanShootMyNova
Wait so we agree. Vader was going all out in a saber duel, just not Force?Because that's been my stance for years.
I've got no issue with that. The Force is a big factor which is why I'm rejecting the notion of ROTJ Luke > Vader in an all out.
But still even in Sabers the rage surely would have amped Luke. And that's all Vader/Palpatine were getting him to do throughout the fight. Getting him to attack in a rage as that's when he's most susceptible to the dark side.
So I'd probably say they were about equal in Sabers, but Vader >> Luke in Force and all out.